Author Topic: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?  (Read 5201 times)

Ratnest

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Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« on: May 13, 2010, 04:56:46 AM »
Anyone know this knot, seen working on a rifleman's sling (a quiet and quick-release way to attach  it)?  Alas, there was no time for a demonstration of how to tie it upon making its acquaintance.

Ratnest

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roo

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 09:28:20 PM »
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50149194@N06/4602517917/

I wonder if you didn't misinterpret what was described.  I can imagine someone describing any number of slipped loop knots or slipped hitches that may make it sound like two parts needed to be pulled for untying, when in fact they meant to indicate that the knot comes free when the second line is pulled.



« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 09:29:10 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 09:32:47 PM »
I take it from the image that this sling was simply something that
ran through some part of the gun, and once untied was liable to
fall away (and, so, would need minding); or maybe it was tied
to the gun?

How is it known that one must pull both ends to release the
knot?  (E.g., if there is just some kind of rather anecdotal evidence
of seeing it so released, it could be that the knot is theoretically
releasable from one end (maybe not both), and that it simply helps
to hold the other for resistance?!)

-- no ideas yet . . .
thanks,
--dl*
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Ratnest

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2010, 05:49:33 AM »
The knotmaker used a loop of paracord  instead of sling attachment hardware.  He liked things quiet.  The bight of the loop was passed through a slot in a plate attached to the weapon, the ends passed through the bight (Larks Head/Cow Hitch wise) one end passed through a sewn loop in the end of the sling, and the knot tied.  Jerking about on one or the other end didn?t collapse the knot, pulling both ends did.  He felt that if one end (howsoever short) caught on something, his sling would not come undone, but if he needed to remove it, a quick tug on both ends of the knot would do that. He showed the action, but not the construction.

roo

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 05:27:26 PM »
The knotmaker used a loop of paracord  instead of sling attachment hardware.  He liked things quiet.  The bight of the loop was passed through a slot in a plate attached to the weapon, the ends passed through the bight (Larks Head/Cow Hitch wise) one end passed through a sewn loop in the end of the sling, and the knot tied.  Jerking about on one or the other end didn?t collapse the knot, pulling both ends did.  He felt that if one end (howsoever short) caught on something, his sling would not come undone, but if he needed to remove it, a quick tug on both ends of the knot would do that. He showed the action, but not the construction.

Do you not have any way of contacting this person?

There's something odd about the desire for the function described.  If he felt it was so important not to have one snagged line untie the knot, he's failed.  You see, if there is tension on the sling (such as happens while being carried, I presume), the hypothetical knot would act like any other single-line release slip hitch.

If I was really concerned about  a snag affecting the knot's security, I would forget about a drawloop-type function entirely.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 05:29:00 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 06:08:00 PM »
 Jerking about on one or the other end didn?t collapse the knot, pulling both ends did.  He felt that if one end (howsoever short) caught on something, his sling would not come undone, but if he needed to remove it, a quick tug on both ends of the knot would do that. He showed the action, but not the construction.

... .  If he felt it was so important not to have one snagged line untie the knot, he's failed.  You see, if there is tension on the sling (such as happens while being carried, I presume), the hypothetical knot would act like any other single-line release slip hitch.

How does that lead to failure?
It takes snagging --and hence pulling on-- both ends;
tension on the SParts is beside the point.

I can see a case where one must pull out both ends,
where each serves qua toggle for the release; but this
is something that can be done sequentially (possibly
by one sequence (A then B) and not the other, if
A e.g. toggles B which toggles the knot).  But I'm
still baffled at any better solution.

--dl*
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roo

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 06:16:06 PM »
How does that lead to failure?
It takes snagging --and hence pulling on-- both ends;
tension on the SParts is beside the point.



He's failed to meet his objective since release will still occur via one line being snagged while the weapon is being carried.  Under this condition, all cord ends will see tension.

I'd think that a standard loop knot would be a better alternative.  Another better alternative would be a slipped buntline hitch with the "ripcord" tucked through the draw loop, and the draw loop worked down to a minimum size.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:17:56 PM by roo »
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Ratnest

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2010, 01:41:32 AM »
Gentlemen,
Thanks for your attention.
Roo, if the sling is under tension (and so the mystery loop passed through it, too), and one end snagged, the other END is still free. Hence the security of the knot for his purposes.  I assume he could hang in his gunsling from the trees a misplaced parachute jump had dropped him in (the sort of thing he does for a living), snag one END of his loop, and still not have his sling drop from his weapon until he/someone/something pulled the other end, too.
So, nobody knows a bend that would require pulling on both free ends to collapse it?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 04:53:03 AM »
Gentlemen,
Thanks for your attention.
Roo, ... the other END is still free.

Thank you for this; I was wondering how many could count.   :D

Quote
So, nobody knows a bend that would require pulling on both free ends to collapse it?

As noted above, I do, but in ONE sense and possibly not what
is required:  toggling the toggle will take two, in-proper-sequence
tugs to release; or using both ends to effect the same toggling
will require both (in any sequence or simultaneously) to be pulled.
But the observable behavior to pulling (e.g., snagging) just one
end will be some release of material (that end's toggling bight)
-- a positive result, in a sense--; but the knot will remain tied
being held by the unpulled end's toggling.  However, your
description of the snagging effect, of only one end being pulled,
suggested full, immediate resistance, not some release but w/o
coming untied.

I can't think of a theoretcial mechanism that takes simultaneous
pulling of ends.  (I had once thought that maybe it could somehow
depend upon the orientation of the knot body, but then that would
take not only simultaneous pulling but doing so w/o biasing the
knot position, and ...  <eh>.)

--dl*
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roo

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 04:19:06 PM »
Gentlemen,
Thanks for your attention.
Roo, if the sling is under tension (and so the mystery loop passed through it, too), and one end snagged, the other END is still free. Hence the security of the knot for his purposes.  I assume he could hang in his gunsling from the trees a misplaced parachute jump had dropped him in (the sort of thing he does for a living), snag one END of his loop, and still not have his sling drop from his weapon until he/someone/something pulled the other end, too.
So, nobody knows a bend that would require pulling on both free ends to collapse it?

I see.  The one-corded drawing and the assumption that you'd not use two different cords led me to think of a one-cord setup.  I can think of no bend that unties only with simultaneous pulling of the free ends as opposed to sequential pulling.  Sorry.

Here's the closest thing I can think of:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/codendknot.html
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 02:07:45 AM by roo »
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Ratnest

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2010, 02:00:40 PM »
Mr. Lehman,
Anent your mention of a knot wherein ?toggling the toggle will take two, in-proper-sequence tugs to release; OR using both ends to effect the same toggling will require both (IN ANY SEQUENCE OR SIMULTANEOUSLY ? my emphases) to be pulled.? , may I ask of what knot or knots you were thinking? I?m sure that ?in-proper-sequence? would not be acceptable for the kind of scenarios flirted with by the gunslinger.
Do you know the definition of ?adventure? as ?someone else in trouble, preferably a long way away??

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Mystery Gunslinger's Loop? Bend?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2010, 02:35:53 AM »
Mr. Lehman,
Anent your mention of a knot ... using both ends to effect the same toggling will require both (IN ANY SEQUENCE OR SIMULTANEOUSLY ? my emphases) to be pulled.? , may I ask of what knot or knots you were thinking?

Ha!  I later came to ask the same question -- evidently I wasn't thinking
thoroughly, but just making a quick guess.  (I'd thought of a slipped
Sheet Bend but realized that if one pulls out the slip-bight from the
hitching line, then irrespective of a 2nd end's "toggling" the knot
will spill!)

Well, I can see the mused redundantly toggled scheme manifest in
ropes joined by toggling eyes together -- e.g., tie Bowlines with long
ends and insert one eye into the other, and with each end, wrap
through once and finish with a slip-bight.  Removing a slipped end
has no effect on the Bowlines, so with yet one in position to toggle
the joint remains, until the 2nd is pulled out.  (There is likely some
messiness about how readily the eyes separate upon pulling out
the slip-bight, given that the initial "wrap" reeving remains -- that
shouldn't hold much force, but YMMV.  Well, if it's all that hard
to release w/two reevings, skip the "wrap" and put slip-bights in
immediately.  -- pretty dubious either way, though ... .)


 :-\