Author Topic: What's its name?  (Read 11136 times)

ptitroy

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What's its name?
« on: September 15, 2005, 02:57:01 AM »
Hello!

Please, excuse me. My English is very bad.
If someone from this forum speaks French, his help will be welcome.

My name is Jacques Royer. I am French, 43 years old, scouts when I was teenager, French Navy for 3 months, I worked for clothing factories for 10 years and now for Inland French Waterways. I play nylon guitar (knots again) I am not really a knot tyer, just a knot user but knots interest me.

I tied a knot to create a loop in the middle of a rope. This knot is not the alpine butterfly. It is quick and easy to tie and untie and you can give easily the size you want to the loop. I tie a "n½ud d'oiseau" then a "demi clé à capeler " around the loop with the "sliding" part of the rope.
I asked for its name on a French knot forum: this knot looks like a "noeud d'oiseau renforcé" or a "noeud tendeur simple" but in the in the middle of a rope and I do not use the same way to make it.
One told me: you are the creator of this knot. I would like to know your opinions about this, before I open a bottle of champagne!

My explanations are not very clear. Is it allowed to write direct links? Is it possible to annex a picture?

Regards

« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 03:02:43 AM by ptitroy »

roo

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2005, 03:06:14 AM »
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 05:14:33 PM by roo »
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ptitroy

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2005, 03:18:34 AM »
 Well I guess I can write direct link
http://www.lesnoeuds.com/forum/0/voir-510.html

roo

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2005, 03:32:23 AM »
On a quick glance, I think it is the Half-Hitch Loop which is erroneously called a butterfly loop in this link :(:

http://www.cs-caving-association.com/Reports/Knots%20A5.pdf

The loop has significant drawbacks.  It's not to hard to make it jam badly.  It doesn't like to keep its shape, and, if drawn up without care, can actually turn into a loop that is fixed
when pulled one way but slides when pulled the opposite way.

It's probably due to these considerations that it doesn't really get used.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 03:35:01 AM by roo »
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ptitroy

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2005, 04:20:24 AM »
No champagne for me. :'(
It is exactly the same knot, only the method of tying changes. (I prefer my method but it's mine!  ;) )
Now I have to find its French name.
Thanks for such a quick and efficient answer. :)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 04:33:23 AM by ptitroy »

Brian_Grimley

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2005, 05:36:12 AM »
Good Lord! That was quick - asked, answered, and thanked in a jiffy. "Knot names" is a hot forum topic these days and there was no time to play the ever popular song - "Butterfly or Alpine Butterfly Loop"! Shucks! ;D

With a sigh of disappointment  ;D, I say: Cheers,
Brian.

nautile

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2005, 11:13:53 AM »
Salut et bienvenue ptiroy.
J'ai preferré t'adresser un mail directement à propos du site de noeuds français que tu cites.
Tu verras il y a ici d'impressionnates encyclopédie sur deux pattes. Moi ils/elles m'impressionnent. Et ils/elles donnent des references que tu peux verifier.
Cordialement

Hello and welcome ptiroy
I preferred to send you an email about the french knot web site you put as link.
You will see, on this forum, are living, walking, impressive, encyclopaedias. They impress me at least. And they give reference you can cross-verify.
Kind regards.

Nautile

Jimbo

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2005, 08:11:58 PM »
Salut et bienvenue Jacques!

Sorry, that's all the French I know, and I stole that from Nautile  :-[.  What little I learned in 7th grade has long since left me.  Your English is vastly better than my French!!

As to your knots, I'm fairly adept at finding stuff, so when I go looking for your "starter", the "n½ud d'oiseau", I get a simple Overhand Loop Knot, (ABOK #1009), not the Slip Knot ("Noeud De Glissade"; ABOK #43 or 44) you show.

As to the "demi clé à capeler", that's just a "Half Hitch" thrown over the Slip Knot's loop.

When I tie the knot you illustrate, I get a decent, fairly pretty loop that's very easy to tie & untie, but I worry that the Overhand Loop you finish with will run itself over the Slipknot's loop & let the whole thing collapse, unless you keep something in the Slipknot's loop at all times.  Ashley's Adjustable Loop -- sorry "ABOK #1021" looks an awful lot like yours, except your illustrated method looks easier to tie on the bight.

So I'm guessing:
"Noeud de glissade et un demi clé à capeler"
or:
"Noeud de glissade et demi d'accroc"
or perhaps:
"Noeud réglable de boucle" ???

(And if you want a nice finger exercise, tie ABOK #1038, a "True Lover's Knot" ("Le Noeud Du Véritable Amoureux"??), which looks exactly like this one when I tie it.  Again, your method "works" better in my hands.)

Just my "two cents worth", which shows how worthless two cents can be.

Please do keep in touch!


Jimbo

(PS: After playing with this knot a little, I am happy to know it!  When I go camping, I "develop" shelter by hanging cordage as a framework for tarp(s).  The Alpine Butterfly has long been my mid-span loop of choice; but this one is easier to tie, untie, & adjust, so I'll be happy to use it on the next camping trip!

Après avoir joué avec ce noeud, je suis heureux de le savoir ! Quand je vais camper, I "développent" l'abri en accrochant le cordage comme cadre pour le tarp(s). Le papillon alpestre a longtemps été mon boucle d'mi-envergure de choix ; mais il est plus facile attacher, délier, et ajuster celui-ci, ainsi je serai heureux de l'employer en prochain voyage campant !)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 05:36:10 AM by Jimbo_The_Kinky »
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!

KnotNow!

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Salut et bienvenue Jacques! Re: What's its name?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2005, 06:57:11 PM »
Salut et bienvenue Jacques!

If you grab up your ABOK and make a mirror image of ABOK # 1053 you will find your knot.  I have always felt that left and right handed versions of the same knot need two names... or at least a recognition of "handedness".  As to method... I think ABOK is easier... just one movement.  Albiet in mirror.
 You will find Natulie a french speaking knotting expert.  He and I have had many "off forum" discussions.  The best part is that charles and I can work off forum to help you with the linguist twist.  See you off forum.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

roo

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Re: Salut et bienvenue Jacques! What's its name?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2005, 08:54:30 PM »
Quote
Salut et bienvenue Jacques!

If you grab up your ABOK and make a mirror image of ABOK # 1053 you will find your knot.  ....


No.  #1053 is the Lineman's Loop.  Look again at ptitroy's image.  
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KnotNow!

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2005, 03:17:26 AM »
Right you are Roo.  My error.  That sent me back to ABOK.  How about ABOK #1038?  Will that satisfy?  This was all fresh in mind because the current issue of Knot News has a piece by Percy Blandford which showes the knot in question but no ABOK reference.  I had hurriedly looked through and made the eronious assumption.  Maybe I got it right this time?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

Jimbo

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2005, 05:08:11 AM »
Quote
How about ABOK #1038?

How about ABOK #1021?  Jacques' method (a Slip Knot with a snubbing loop from the slipping side) seems to come out more like that one, to me...

Of course, if you start to tie #1038, but, like a certain wretched Kinker of Lower-Eastern Cordage, don't follow the written directions...   :-[  ... well, you can lead the OH Knot over the Slip Knot there, as you set everything up & end up the same...  Or at least I did.  A bunch of times.  (Smacks self on head)
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!

KnotNow!

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2005, 09:43:29 AM »
Hi, well done Jimbo.  I am undone.  Darn, I knew if you got an ABOK in your hands there would be no stopping you!  My only plea is "I was tired".  :-[  As an aside.. is it not fun how these related but different knots exist?  1038 and 1021 and the alpine butterfly et al?  What a difference a twist makes!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 09:53:27 AM by PABPRES »
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nautile

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2005, 04:42:40 PM »
Bonjour !

Thank you Pabpres and Jimbo for providing me with a natural testing ground : please consult album for a graphical summary of your posts using the H& L drawing sequence tool :


http://fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/innominedarnold/album?.dir=/a37b&.src=ph

and post in "tentative defining knot" titled "ptitroy-1021-1038
Put it there as I think best to put all this sort of information in the same topic. Already 3 topics ate intertwining
the above one plus "cans of worms" plus "abok compacted & extended

Ptitroy           : H1  L2 H3  H4  L5  L6  L7  H8  H9  L10
#1038           : H1  L2 H3  H4  L5  L6  L7  H8  H9  L10
#1021           : L1  H2 L3  L4  H5  L6  L7  H8  H9  L10

  #44                     : H1  L2  H3  H4  L5
  #45                     : L1  L2  H3  H4  L5  L6  L7
#1053           : H1  L2  H3  H4  L5 H6  L7 L8  H9  H10 L11 L12

Regards.

Charles /nautile

Brian_Grimley

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Re: What's its name?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2005, 06:23:08 PM »
Wow, Jimbo, thanks for pointing out the relationship between ABOK 1038 ("Englishman's Loop") and ABOK 1021 ("Adjustable Loop").

PABPRES said, "What a difference a twist makes"! I looked at one method of tying the "Adjustable Loop". That method was the way the "caving Butterfly" started, in the site Roo posted: http://www.cs-caving-associatin.com/Reports/Knots%20A5.pdf . I compared it to ABOK #1040. If you start tying from the left, they only differ in the direction of the second loop- a different twist!

ABOK #1040 yields the "Improved Englishman's Loop", ABOK #1039, with nicely aligned "Overhand Knots". The "caving Butterfly start" yields the "Englishman's Loop", ABOK #1038, with not so nicely aligned Overhand Knots, and the "Adjustable Loop", ABOK #1021.

The "Improved Englishman's Loop", ABOK #1039, can transform into an adjustable loop; however, I have not see that particular form in print.

Of course, one can start these knots from the "Slip Knot", ABOK #44, and the difference in the various knots is the different direction (twist) of the final half hitch.

"What a difference a twist makes", said PABPRES. Oh, so true!

Cheers,
Brian.