Author Topic: Knot Families  (Read 16875 times)

stebold

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Knot Families
« on: April 07, 2010, 12:51:18 AM »
Is there a listing of knot families I could be directed to, or would anybody be willing to start one?
Tackling each family in turn seems to be a good way to learn knots.
I can see this being some kind of basis for a method of knot classification (I don't think thousands of knots have been assigned family relationships yet) but I'm really only interested in the most useful knots for different tasks.  I think this would be an interesting way of learning in a methodical and time-efficient way.

The Figure Eight Family
The Prusik Family
The Dragon Family
The Hitch Family

What else?

Thanks.

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 09:08:10 AM »
Hi Stebold,

Dave Root does a good categorisation of knots on his site http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm

Also, how about considering families based on the method of making - an example might be The Folded Loop Method Family  it includes the Clove, the Constrictor, the Boa and the Myrtle loop family.

Derek

roo

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 04:59:21 PM »
Is there a listing of knot families I could be directed to, or would anybody be willing to start one?
Tackling each family in turn seems to be a good way to learn knots.
I can see this being some kind of basis for a method of knot classification (I don't think thousands of knots have been assigned family relationships yet) but I'm really only interested in the most useful knots for different tasks.  I think this would be an interesting way of learning in a methodical and time-efficient way.

The Figure Eight Family
The Prusik Family
The Dragon Family
The Hitch Family

What else?

Thanks.

The "Hitch Family" gives me pause as being overly broad.  Don't go there. 

Here's one family:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/reefknot.html

...And it's pretty cursory at that.  Usually pointing out such similarities is merely interesting.  Typically there is but one or two important knots in a family and the rest are trivial at best.  I would tend to focus on teaching important knots so as to reduce the memory burden of the student who likely doesn't have time to become a knot nerd.

I would avoid the layhands site.  There are still too many errors and deficiencies on it.

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stebold

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 09:34:01 PM »
Thanks, I'm going to charge ahead here with what I had in mind, building on the table of contents of Budworth's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Knots.

I like the layhands site, but the grouping system there has "Double-Loop" knots, for instance, that have nothing in common but double loops.  I'm looking for similar ways of creating knots.
There must be other logical families, but the reef-knot and some different ways of screwing it up don't qualify, in my view.
________________________

The Figure Eight Family    
   Figure of eight knot   
   Figure of eight knot (with draw-loop)   
   Figure of eight noose   
   Figure of eight hitch 
   Double figure of eight hitch 
   Figure of eight loop   
   Figure of eight becket hitch   
   Sliding figure of eight bend   
   Figure of eight bend   
   Figure of eight twin loops   
   Figure of eight triple loops   
   Figure of eight coil   

The Prusik Family
  Prusik knot
  Alpine Butterfly knot 
  Asher's Bottle Sling   
  Ring hitch   

The Bowline Family
   Bowline   
   Double bowline
  Triple Bowline
  Twin bowline bend   
   Water bowline   
   Bowline in the bight   
   Eskimo bowline   

The Hitch Family
   Clove hitch   
   Ossel hitch   
   Rolling hitch   
   Constrictor knot (and with draw-loop)   
   Double constrictor knot   
   Strangle knot   
  Transom knot
  Frustrator knot
   Snuggle hitch   
   Double figure of eight hitch
   Figure of eight becket hitch 
  Highwayman's hitch     
   Boom hitch   

roo

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 11:06:52 PM »
There must be other logical families, but the reef-knot and some different ways of screwing it up don't qualify, in my view.

Oookay.  Well draw up your boundaries anyway you wish then. 

I might suggest that you refine your "Hitch Family" title, unless you want to include most of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hitch_knots

(and quite a few others). 
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stebold

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 11:43:02 PM »
Another attempt.   :D

The Figure Eight Family   
   Figure of eight knot     
   Figure of eight noose   
   Figure of eight hitch 
   Double figure of eight hitch 
   Figure of eight loop   
   Figure of eight becket hitch   
   Sliding figure of eight bend   
   Figure of eight bend   
   Figure of eight twin loops   
   Figure of eight triple loops   
   Figure of eight coil   

The Prusik Family
  Prusik knot
  Alpine Butterfly knot 
  Ring hitch 
  Asher's Bottle Sling   

The Bowline Family
   Bowline   
   Double bowline
  Triple Bowline
  Twin bowline bend   
   Water bowline   
   Bowline in the bight   
   Eskimo bowline   

The Rolling Hitch Family  (Does this make sense as a refinement?)
   Rolling hitch
   Clove hitch   
   Ossel hitch   
   Constrictor knot 
   Double constrictor knot   
   Strangle knot   
   Transom knot
   Frustrator knot
   Snuggle hitch   
   Double figure of eight hitch
   Highwayman's hitch     
   Boom hitch   

The Dragon Family
   Dragon
   Double Dragon
   Double Double Dragon
   Triple Double Dragon
   Slipped Double Dragon

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 06:08:55 AM »
"families" of knots : how do you check their DNA?

I'm particularly curious as to how the Butterfly came to be in some
"Prusik family"?  (As well as how the Prusik avoided going to the
(Rolling) Hitch family reunion!)  And the Highwayman's Hitch
seems unrelated to the Rolling Hitch; that family is rather varied.

Note that the "Double Fig.8 Hitch" in fact has not even a single "fig.8" !

OTOH, one might see Ashley's Stopper as intimately related to the Bowline;
but it all depends on what one wants to treat as family.

 :)


Rrok007

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 02:29:20 PM »
I'm a little curious on how you intend to structure you're families.

MY OCD tendencies love the idea, however, I'm hoping that you aren't planning on wildly radical reclassification.

I'm not opposed to showing the similarities between two or more knots for the purpose of making it easier to learn, but I just can't bring myself to call an Overhand Knot a "Single-strand, Zero-turn Matthew Walker" nor will I ever call a Blood Knot a "Single-strand, Multiple-turn Matthew Walker".

stebold

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 10:46:03 PM »
I appreciate the responses.
My grouping system isn't completely clean, of course, but what knot classification system could be?  My little project may sound silly and full of holes to veteran knotters, but it still makes sense to me.
In grouping, I'm looking mostly at knot construction and also, but to a much lesser degree, the end result (appearance and function).

"families" of knots : how do you check their DNA?

Not looking for the double helix, just obvious similarities in the loops, wraps and tucks used in construction.  :)

I'm particularly curious as to how the Butterfly came to be in some
"Prusik family"?  (As well as how the Prusik avoided going to the
(Rolling) Hitch family reunion!) 
To my amateur eye, they're strikingly similar, but we all look at knots differently.  The Butterfly is a loop (ok, bight) that rolls around through another loop, creating a neat handhold, with no working or standing ends involved.  The Prusik is a loop that rolls around through another loop, creating a neat handhold, with no working or standing ends involved.  Asher's Bottle Sling is basically a Prusik with a twist.  There is no comparing the Prusik to the Rolling Hitch or Clove or Constrictor, other than that they all go around fixed objects.

And the Highwayman's Hitch seems unrelated to the Rolling Hitch; that family is rather varied.
The Highwayman's Hitch is almost a Frustrator knot, with the addition of a draw-loop for quick release.  These two that I'm putting in with "Rolling Hitches" are different from the Clove and Constrictor, etc., in that they contain bights.  But still, you're wrapping cord around to create a post hitch and they start off the same way.  The Buntline Hitch is a noose that with only one turn around a fixed object, so I'd say it does not qualify as a member of my "Rolling Hitch" family.

Note that the "Double Fig.8 Hitch" in fact has not even a single "fig.8" !

Dan, the Double Fig.8 Hitch didn't get that name for no reason.  When completed you don't see any figure eights, true, but again, it's the construction I'm (mostly) using for grouping.  It's two overlayed figure eights, folded over and slid onto a post.  You could almost say it's more "figure eightish" in construction than any other knot!  Clearly, the Double Fig.8 Hitch is a member in good standing of both the Figure Eight and Rolling Hitch families.  (I got no problem with duplication!)  :D

OTOH, one might see Ashley's Stopper as intimately related to the Bowline; but it all depends on what one wants to treat as family. :)

The bowlines are all obviously fixed-loop bowlines, created by starting with a loop sitting on top of the line.  Ashley's Stopper starts with an overhand knot, and I really don't see much similarity.

stebold

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 10:56:14 PM »
I'm a little curious on how you intend to structure you're families.
Just grouping knots into families, not planning on taking it any further.

I'm not opposed to showing the similarities between two or more knots for the purpose of making it easier to learn, but I just can't bring myself to call an Overhand Knot a "Single-strand, Zero-turn Matthew Walker" nor will I ever call a Blood Knot a "Single-strand, Multiple-turn Matthew Walker".
Not to worry, I have no intention of trying to compel anybody to refer to an Overhand Knot as a "Single-strand, Zero-turn Matthew Walker."  ;D
Hmmm, where do I put these nifty knots?   ::)

roo

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 11:28:55 PM »
The bowlines are all obviously fixed-loop bowlines, created by starting with a loop sitting on top of the line.  Ashley's Stopper starts with an overhand knot, and I really don't see much similarity.

Tie a bowline.  Work the loop down to its minimal size.  You should quickly see the stopper in question without too much trouble.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 08:32:52 PM »
My grouping system isn't completely clean, of course, but what knot classification system could be?  My little project may sound silly and full of holes to veteran knotters, but it still makes sense to me.
In grouping, I'm looking mostly at knot construction and also, but to a much lesser degree, the end result (appearance and function).
It will help to try to articulate your "family" criteria;
"silly" is a YMMV aspect, but there are many ways one might
group knots.  The Bowline<=>Ashley's Stopper relation is one of
topology, not of function nor of tying -- dynamically, in use,
opposite parts are loaded (and the Bowline has an eye/loop/bight).

Quote
I'm particularly curious as to how the Butterfly came to be in some
"Prusik family"?  (As well as how the Prusik avoided going to the
(Rolling) Hitch family reunion!) 
To my amateur eye, they're strikingly similar, but we all look at knots differently.  The Butterfly is a loop (ok, bight) that rolls around through another loop, creating a neat handhold, with no working or standing ends involved.  The Prusik is a loop that rolls around through another loop, creating a neat handhold, with no working or standing ends involved.  Asher's Bottle Sling is basically a Prusik with a twist.  There is no comparing the Prusik to the Rolling Hitch or Clove or Constrictor, other than that they all go around fixed objects.

The Butterfly is an eye knot Tiable In-the Bight; the Prusik hitch is
a friction hitch to be tied around some object (usually rope).  It is
primarily by function that one sees likeness to the Rolling Hitch;
but there are "Prusiks" (so-named, similarly structured, i.e.) that
are much like versions of the Rolling H. (where tail & SPart are
parallel, as in Prusik/Cow, not Clove), where one "half" is a single
turn, and is on the near (to loading/SParts) end of the knot).

But your "amateur" fresh perspective on the Butterfly leads to interesting
explorations:  e.g., tie it as though making a sort of Prusik hitch
to an object --with a ring-sling--, bringing the eventual eye-bight
through the connected Butterfly SParts, which should be sized rather
small as a bight.   (--have just done some simple, around-finger,
playing with this ...)

Quote
And the Highwayman's Hitch seems unrelated to the Rolling Hitch; that family is rather varied.
The Highwayman's Hitch is almost a Frustrator knot, with the addition of a draw-loop for quick release.  These two that I'm putting in with "Rolling Hitches" are different from the Clove and Constrictor, etc., in that they contain bights.  But still, you're wrapping cord around to create a post hitch and they start off the same way.  The Buntline Hitch is a noose that with only one turn around a fixed object, so I'd say it does not qualify as a member of my "Rolling Hitch" family.

The Highwayman's H. is a treacherous knot; you'll do well to revise is
such that the SPart-loaded bight surrounds the bight through which
the slip-/tail-bight is tucked as a toggle
-- this is a surer variation.
In the original, the loading can collapse the slip-bight, possibly spilling
or else locking (i.e., unable to be slipped free) the knot!
The "Frustrator" is a Constrictor with a twist, like you noted for Asher's
Bottle Sling
-- twist one of the loops.

Quote
Note that the "Double Fig.8 Hitch" in fact has not even a single "fig.8" !
Dan, the Double Fig.8 Hitch didn't get that name for no reason.  When completed you don't see any figure eights, true, but again, it's the construction I'm (mostly) using for grouping.  It's two overlayed figure eights, folded over and slid onto a post.  You could almost say it's more "figure eightish" in construction than any other knot!  Clearly, the Double Fig.8 Hitch is a member in good standing of both the Figure Eight and Rolling Hitch families.  (I got no problem with duplication!)  :D

Whoa, we've been here before:  by "fig.8" I mean exactly a Fig.8 -- not merely
something with an 8-ish figure (such as I think you can find in that Budworth
book for an Overhand knot at the start of the Tricorn (Ashley's #1029)).
In your referenced binder, there is no knotted structure at all, until
putting the ("8-ish"-laid) cordage around an object (as are Clove & Constrictor
non-knots w/o an object).

On the other hand, if one accepted topological equality (of the
base structure), say, there are some rather Bowlinesque eye knots
that can come from a Fig.8 start, where the '8' is re-oriented into
the sort of turns of a Bowline.

...
So, there are families by all sorts of connections /perspectives !
Or knot.

Thanks,
--dl*
====

stebold

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 09:22:02 PM »
Tie a bowline.  Work the loop down to its minimal size.  You should quickly see the stopper in question without too much trouble.

When I work a common bowline down to its minimal size I get a bulky knot (of course) but it doesn't appear to be a true Ashley's Stopper.  Are you sure it's the same?  If it's not exactly the same there is no point.  If it is exactly the same it still doesn't make sense to place Ashley's Stopper amongst the bowlines because who  makes an Ashley's Stopper by reducing a Bowline?  That's the hard way. 
Topological similarity?  I'll get to that....

roo

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 12:08:34 AM »
Tie a bowline.  Work the loop down to its minimal size.  You should quickly see the stopper in question without too much trouble.

When I work a common bowline down to its minimal size I get a bulky knot (of course) but it doesn't appear to be a true Ashley's Stopper.  Are you sure it's the same?  If it's not exactly the same there is no point.  If it is exactly the same it still doesn't make sense to place Ashley's Stopper amongst the bowlines because who  makes an Ashley's Stopper by reducing a Bowline?  That's the hard way.  
Topological similarity?  I'll get to that....

It's the very same stopper, upside down.  You wouldn't tie it that way usually.  Since you are placing your borders on your knot families so arbitrarily, you can hardly deny others the right to place the stopper in question in the same "family" (whatever that means with regard to knots) as the bowline.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 05:35:33 PM by roo »
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stebold

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Re: Knot Families
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 08:49:52 PM »
I like the way Geoffrey Budworth grouped knots in his Illustrated Encyclopedia and I'm expanding on it in this topic.
Most books organize knots by hitches, bends, loops, nooses and miscellaneous.  I've found it exasperating that two knots that only differ by a tuck or a twist are separated by a hundred pages, with no mention made of their similarity.  I mean, if the purpose of the book is to teach the reader knots, then why not try something radical and make them easy to learn by stressing similarities?  Inform the reader that an Asher's Bottle Sling is a Prusik with a twist and a Transom knot is really a Strangle knot.

Here is Budworth's grouping in the table of contents of his Illustrated Encyclopedia:
1. Overhand Knots
2. Figure of Eight Knots
3. Bowlines and Sheet Bends
     I prefer to separate the two.
4. Crossing Knots
     I'd rather create a "Rolling Hitches" family and include only multiple-turn post hitches.  Dan Lehman likes the term "binders."
5. Other Useful Knots
     Does a Prusik Family that includes the Butterfly really make no sense?


My grouping:
The Overhand Knot Family
    - Hitches, bends, loops and nooses in overhand knot style
 
   Overhand knot
    Reef Knot
   Overhand Loop
   Simple Noose
   Double Overhand Noose
   Double Overhand knot
   Ashley's Stopper Knot
   Tricorn Loop
   Strangle Knot  (isn't Budworth's "Miller's Knot" a Strangle Knot?  Does it really merit a new name for being made off the post?)
   Angler's knot
   Fisherman's knot
   Fisherman's Bend
   Hunter's Bend
   Zeppelin Bend
   Tape Knot
   Round Turn and Two Half-Hitches

The Figure Eight Family
    - Hitches, bends, loops and nooses in figure eight style
 
   Figure of eight knot    
   Figure of eight noose  
   Figure of eight hitch  
   Double figure of eight hitch  
   Figure of eight loop  
   Figure of eight becket hitch  
   Sliding figure of eight bend  
   Figure of eight bend  
   Figure of eight twin loops  
   Figure of eight triple loops  
   Figure of eight coil  

The Prusik Family
   - Fun with loops

  Prusik knot
  Alpine Butterfly knot  
  Ring hitch  
  Asher's Bottle Sling    

The Bowline Family
   - Fixed loops, variations on the overrated King of Knots

   Bowline  
   Double bowline
  Triple Bowline
  Twin bowline bend  
   Water bowline    
   Bowline in the bight    
   Eskimo bowline  

The Rolling Hitch Family
   - Binders, multiple-turn post hitches
 
   Rolling hitch
   Clove hitch  
   Ossel hitch  
   Constrictor knot  
   Double constrictor knot  
   Strangle knot    
   Transom knot
   Frustrator knot
   Snuggle hitch  
   Double figure of eight hitch
   Highwayman's hitch    
   Boom hitch  

The Dragon Family
   - Dave Root's favorite, recommended at the layhands site

   Dragon
   Double Dragon
   Double Double Dragon
   Triple Double Dragon
   Slipped Double Dragon
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 10:05:22 PM by stebold »