Author Topic: Putting right (hopefully) the French bowlines  (Read 3124 times)

nautile

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Putting right (hopefully) the French bowlines
« on: September 11, 2005, 06:48:40 PM »
Hello!
References used :
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1875 - MANUEL DU GABIER ( The Topman Manual) used to prepare the exams to get to be an offifial "Gabier breveté", the most respected sailor on board od a French ship.
As published on order of "Mr le Ministre de la Marine et des Colonies" ( Minister for the Navy and the Colonies)/ Paris printed by "Les éditions militaire de J. Dumaine" ( J.Dumaine military editions)
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David H. Roberts Bilingual bi-directional dictionnary  "An English-French and French-English vocabulary of 18th century maritime words and phrases"
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and what is published on the Net by a guy called Bruzelius,outstanding web site.
http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Nautica.html
( but link might not work so go on Google with  search word : bruzelius.and you will get it referenced)
- - - - -
Before going to my album: Noeud de chaise- French 19th bowlines
http://fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/innominedarnold/album?.dir=c424&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/innominedarnold/my_photos

I suggest : please read and take some short notes of names or better make a printing, so as to be able to easily translate my French labels to ABOK# or English

- - - - -  
What must be wrote beforehand :

John Smith's Seaman's Grammar (published in 1627) is perhaps the first written reference to it, although a "curiously intricate knot akin to the bowline" was discovered on the rigging of Egyptian Pharaoh Cheops' solar ship during an excavation.
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[Middle English bouline, probably from Middle Danish bovline or Middle Low German boline, both from Middle Low German boch line : boch, bow + line, line (from Latin linea; see line1).]
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bowline : bóglína in old norse
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BOULINE   the sole rightfull French bowline in fact is BOULINE (French) = BOWLINE (English). Only one letter to change, and with pronunciation they are both "cousins".

Do not confuse Bouline and Touline as quite a handful of Frenches do, at least those who know the 2 words, and they are not many. ( too much "polllution" of language by "direct translation" from English).
.
Touline is a heaving line.

There" is "le noeud de pomme de (ligne) de touline" ("heaving line "apple" knot") that name is forgotten or never known by many translators who ignorantly name it "Poing de singe" just word for word for "monkey's fist".( there are quite a lot not even knowing the "right" French name or ignoring it in favor of a litteral translation from the English,traductors should have a better culture before tackling specialized traductions!)


Le noeud de chaise ( bowline ) is just a clever saltation from the sheet bend

- - - -
inside ( ) you find the "word for word"translation  and between [ ] you find the English equivalent and/or ABOK# see how much double to "weed out" there are?)]

Pictures in my album taken from the TOPMAN MANUAL
:
Fig 3 : Noeud de BOULINE SIMPLE ( Simple Bowline knot)[sailor's knot bowline ] a "almost near" one is ABOK#1026 ABOK#1780-

Fig 4 : Noeud de BOULINE DOUBLE (Double Bowline knot) [ABOK# 1130-1131-1144-1145]

Fig 9 : Noeud de CHAISE SIMPLE (Simple chair knot)[bowline knot ABOK# 71 ABOK#266  ABOK#471  ABOK#287  ABOK#1010 ABOK#2066 ]
ABOK#1073 IS NOT and is ifrom where I stand erroneously dubbed "french bowline".
I should think that the french official manual should better know than even that greatest of the experts what is a "official" French Bowline" or rather "noeud de chaise francais" ]

Fig 10 : Noeud de CHAISE DOUBLE (Double chair knot)[ABOK#1072 and 1073 ARE NOT that one ]

Fig 11 : Noeud de CHAISE DOUBLE ( same label but different knot structure double with the double)[ Bowline in/on/upon/with the bight  ABOK#1080 ABOK#1081 ABOK#1082 with a 1009 or 2068 begining ]

Fig 12 : Noeud de CHAISE DE CALFAT (Caulker chair knot) [ABOK#455 the boatswain hitch is not that one  even if ABOK in French use hat name ABOK#1073 .  ABOK#1072 if left turned around the standing part instead of right turned as here would be that.

Fig 13 : Noeud d'AGUI (AGUI knot) [standing bowline ? if ones follow the ROBERT's dictionnary - 2 interlocked bowlines French translation of ABOK add that #1010 was called AGUI, that is a no-no if according to TOPMAN MANUAL  
Two bowlines or the Bowline Bend [ABOK#1455]  there, rightly, the French translation say Noeud d'Agui]

Fig 14 : Noeud de LAGUIS or sometimes LAGUI ( LAGUIS knot) [ Running bowline knot  ABOK#1117  ]

Fig 17 : Noeud  A PLEIN POING or DE BEC D'OISEAU ( Made with the fist knot or full-fist knot or bird's beak knot) [ overhand knot with the bind / Loop knot  / overhand loop  ABOK#1009 ABOK#2068 ] put there as I have seen it said to be " a bowline" (?)
ABOK 1013 is The double or round turn bowline and the French translation say Noeud de chaise double, which it is certainly not according to the Topman manual)




Have no place here :

ABOK#265  ABOK#1508  ABOK#1499  ABOK#1011  ABOK#1012  ABOK#1013  ABOK#1014  ABOK#1015  ABOK#1016 ABOK#1019  ABOK#1034-1/2 ABOK#1072  ABOK#1073 ABOK#1083  ABOK#1084  ABOK#1087  ABOK#  ABOK#  ABOK#


Conclusion :

Beware of oral lore .
Write "about" it but just "as is" and of no other value than anecdotical. At least if not verified by others sources ( the nearest of the topic is the better! and the older the better) very carefully.
When using a name for a knot one should take care not to attribute it too "precisely"! Error lie that way.

Cheers.
Charles/nautile

knudeNoggin

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Re: Putting right (hopefully) the French bowlines
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2005, 11:40:22 PM »
Quote

- John Smith's Seaman's Grammar (published in 1627) is perhaps the first written reference to it, although a "curiously intricate knot akin to the bowline" was discovered on the rigging of Egyptian Pharaoh Cheops' solar ship during an excavation.

If a bowline is intricate, what is (more) simple?

Quote
Fig 3 : Noeud de BOULINE SIMPLE ( Simple Bowline knot)[sailor's knot bowline ] a "almost near" one is ABOK#1026 ABOK#1780-

Fig 4 : Noeud de BOULINE DOUBLE (Double Bowline knot) [ABOK# 1130-1131-1144-1145]

Better than "near", #1130/1 are roughly what you show, although it seems
that both of these seized structures involve 2 turns (and are seized multiply,
not just once, as you picture).  "Inside"/"outside" CLINCH.  Note that the photo
that you have as your 2nd image is "outside", end spiraling away from the eye,
whereas everything else--including your 4th image, a sketch--has the end spiraling
towards the eye.

Quote
Fig 9 : ...

It's confusing to follow your discussion which must refer to "fig"s of a book rather
than to the images you have presented.  I'm curious about YOUR 9th image
(not to be confused with "fig.9"), which is what has been elsewhere called a "Water
Bowline", except that in your case the end does not extend through the second
half-hitch/turn.  This is a knot w/o explanation for its use, as shown.

*knudeNoggin*

nautile

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Re: Putting right (hopefully) the French bowlines
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2005, 10:56:03 AM »
Hello KnudeNoggin

-Am not responsible for John Smith view of it.
I hold the same view has you hold : a "simple" knot as in "not complex (not a heavy load of information to have to do that one) and not complicated (  not many parts)" but as in clever.

Quote
Better than "near", #1130/1...


#1130-31 that I verified at the time of first posting are definitely not french bowline as show the "Manuel"

Quote
Note that the photo that you have as your 2nd image is "outside", end spiraling away from the eye,
whereas everything else--including your 4th image, a sketch--has the end spiraling
towards the eye


No error in that only very bad presentation.
Now corrected by changing order of pics in album without modifying the pics themselves..

Quote
It's confusing to follow...

I saw that as a mean to make for ease of cross verification by those who can lay their hand on a copy of the Manuel du Gabier.
But you are right, confusing, the more so with bad sequencing of pics.

Duly noted and acted upon. Corrected a botched job!
Had only verified fig 10 and 11 that nicely are pics 10 and 11. Taking shorts cuts is a good mean to go the long way!


Changed a wee bit the sequencing of pictures and their labelling.
Now it is precised that fig X is a book reference.
Now the drawing  when it exist is at the beginning of the sequence.
Should have been more attentive and structured, added to  much noise to signal, forgot that I have a map inside my brain that others do not have and that was the whole object of the exercice to transmit it.
Did not rise to the onus of preventing break in communication on that one.

Thank you for helping me putting it righ. Exemplify that "grouped" work is more often better than "lone wolf" work.


pictures should be read as "packages" now  ( have verified once more : no discrepancy between my drawings and the book's.

- Pic 1
- Pics 2-3
- Pics 4-5-5
- Pics 7
- Pics 8-9-10
- Pics 11-12
- Pics 13-14
- Pic 15
- Pic 16

Quote
I'm curious about YOUR 9th image (not to be confused with "fig.9"), which is what has been elsewhere called a "Water
Bowline", except that in your case the end does not extend through the second half-hitch/turn.  This is a knot w/o explanation for its use, as shown


No mistake there as far as I can see, you are right in your comment on "water line" but it does not apply to what I show without error. At least with out error if "Manuel" is the reference.
Not the same one, but certainly a brother knot.

No usage given.
In fact the "manuel is only the "theorical" part, set so as fixing a "program" inside which the examinator could ask what he pleased to the candidate.
I suppose that the ones undertaking to pass the exam already had a long practical experience on board of tall ship and only wanted promotion.
Do not know for English or American Navy but in our's ( merchant and military) le gabier / the topman was the elite of sailors, much better respected and much better paid, even by officers. denomination was "matelot gabier" ( word for word Sailor Topman)

Please give me your advice on new album either on the forum or using my email. And once more thanks for helping making good a bad illustration and thanks again for helping.

Nautile / Charles