Author Topic: Name this mystery knot  (Read 6071 times)

Quantum

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Name this mystery knot
« on: March 08, 2010, 07:12:45 PM »
First, I'd like to introduce myself to the IGKT community, having been a lurker for the last 6 months.  Of all the forums I've been a part of on the internet over the years, the IGKT forum comes across as, by far, the most cordial, friendly and focused!  Due in large part to this atmosphere, and the enthusiasm of both regular contributors and veterans (Dan Lehman and Roo come to mind), my interest has grown remarkably.  Gone are the days of overhand knots on top of overhand knots as a solution to secure everything!   ;D

That said, I have something to finally contribute to knot tying discussion:

At a local climbing store, I noticed this knot (attached below), tied and clipped to a carabiner on a climbing demo wall.  On multiple occasions, I have asked the staff the name of this knot, to no avail.  Rumor has it that an employee (and knot enthusiast) tied it long ago and currently remains a mystery to all.  I have gotten pretty good at identifying knots in the wild but this one is a mystery.

I imagine it's a bowline variant, but I've ruled out a Double Bowline with a Yosemite finish and Yosemite EBDB (End-Bound Double Bowline) -- my best guesses.  The finish and the figure-eight orientation has me puzzled.

Cheers






« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 07:17:06 PM by Quantum »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1855
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 09:05:19 PM »
Without steps, or a more exploded view, I cannot decipher the structure with certainty.  Even if I had an exploded view, I somehow doubt I would recognize it.

The first thing that struck me was that it seems to gobble up waaay too much rope.  Good luck making an adjustment to loop size or excess once things are tied.

Is there some quality to this loop knot that you find appealing, or is it just a matter of curiosity?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 09:09:37 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Quantum

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 10:49:37 PM »
> Without steps, or a more exploded view, I cannot decipher
> the structure with certainty.  Even if I had an exploded view,
> I somehow doubt I would recognize it.

The next time I'm there I'll make a point of trying to snap an exploded view.


> The first thing that struck me was that it seems to
> gobble up waaay too much rope.  Good luck making
> an adjustment to loop size or excess once things are tied.

I agree.  Could the same be said of the EBDB?


>  Is there some quality to this loop knot that you find
>  appealing, or is it just a matter of curiosity?

Purely an academic exercise.  I haven't seen it before and I would be curious as to what use or advantage it has over other loops, if any.







roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1855
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 11:15:31 PM »

> The first thing that struck me was that it seems to
> gobble up waaay too much rope.  Good luck making
> an adjustment to loop size or excess once things are tied.

I agree.  Could the same be said of the EBDB?

As shown on page 8 of this .pdf:
http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/02_Bowlines.pdf

I tend to think of it as a Double Bowline with a repeated finish, but the image should clarify for all viewers.  Regarding adjustablity of loop size or excess, I've seen worse and I've seen better for loop knots designed for the same purpose.  I never use it in the field.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 08:13:26 AM »
The next time I'm there I'll make a point of trying to snap an exploded view.

 :o  My experience w/photography is recent & limited,
but do you intend to get radically retro and use one of
those ancient, flash-powder illuminators?  !   ;D


Quote
> The first thing that struck me was that it seems to
> gobble up waaay too much rope.  Good luck making
> an adjustment to loop size or excess once things are tied.

I agree.  Could the same be said of the EBDB?

No; as Churchill is reported to have said, "That's the sort of nonsense
up with which I'll not put!"  -- EBDB's one of mine, and uses no more
than is necessary:  the "D" aspect is necessary to give sufficient grip/nip
on the "EB" "repeated finish" part (try a single Bwl with like finish IN
KERNMANTLE rope and you'll see that it's not adequate).


Quote
>  Is there some quality to this loop knot that you find
>  appealing, or is it just a matter of curiosity?

Purely an academic exercise.  I haven't seen it before and I would be curious
as to what use or advantage it has over other loops, if any.

It stays tied -- that's why you've seen it for ages.  (And perhaps the
"stays tied" aspect involves not only the purely physical security of
the knotted structure, but also some mystical power of precluding
any attempts to untie it, lest it never be repeated; or that it holds
magical powers not to be disturbed!  -- the ghost of some old
employee will give you noogies at night and Fall-Factor-2 wedgies
with your bed sheets.)

Interesting post.  I'll let the mystery sit for a while, to garner others'
thoughts; it IS solvable.

The funny thing is that, as I read the opening lines --and images were
yet unformed, slowly loading--, I thought that you were going to tell
of finding one of my knots:  ages ago (so long I can't recall,
but maybe a decade!?) I tied a Lehman8 in some rope used for clipping
a 'biner to a climber of a rotating wall (machine designed to keep turning
and presenting more "up" to a climber going nowhere despite making
all the right moves (which device I should add I have never seen used!)),
and just the other night I again noticed the eye knot in place.  I've been
tempted to ask someone what knot it was, but in this case they might
just opine "it's a Fig.8 ..." w/o careful notice (as Fig.8s get tied in such
a variety of dressings).  And elsewhere I recall finding some monstrosity,
worse than this case, for a similar attachment to a 'biner (I think in
this case it was for simple suspension when trying on a harness), with
perhaps the original knot having been further knotted (vs. adjusted)
so as to change its height.

So, fun exercise this, in forensic knotting.

Thanks,
--dl*
====

[edit to straighten up punctuation, diction, in one prg (w/FF2) ]
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 07:38:04 PM by Dan_Lehman »

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 10:11:37 AM »
Tarbuck variant?

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 11:02:29 AM »
Quote
-- the ghost of some old
employee will give you noogies at night and fall-factor-Two wedgies
with your bed sheets.

Dan,

you should let us see your whit more often - this has had me smiling and chuckling all morning.

'Fall-factor two wedgies' will live on in my imagination for some time to come.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 07:41:56 PM »
Tarbuck variant?

No, this won't fly.  The connections & positions & ... don't accommodate
this possibility, despite the suggestion from one perspective at one area.

Next ... ?

 ;)

Dan,  you should let us see your whit more often

My wat?!

 :D

« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 06:25:42 AM by Dan_Lehman »

SpitfireTriple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
  • Seek Truth
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 07:20:19 PM »
At a local climbing store, I noticed this knot (attached below), tied and clipped to a carabiner on a climbing demo wall.  On multiple occasions, I have asked the staff the name of this knot, to no avail.  Rumor has it that an employee (and knot enthusiast) tied it long ago and currently remains a mystery to all.  I have gotten pretty good at identifying knots in the wild but this one is a mystery.

I can myself offer no suggestions as to the identity of the knot.  I will say, however, that if that knot is ever used to bear weight, and if the people of the climbing wall have no idea what it is, then they are failing in their duty to keep the wall safe.

I'm not saying this as a health & safety nazi, by the way, I'm saying it because I reckon if you say the same to the store they'll agree, and let you untie the knot.  And then we'll know what it is.. ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 07:21:05 PM by SpitfireTriple »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 02:25:59 AM »
I will say, however, that if that knot is ever used to bear weight, and if the people of the climbing wall have no idea what it is, then they are failing in their duty to keep the wall safe.

Except that maybe someone does or did know what it was,
and having been used many times, it has proven itself -- it
hasn't come untied.  So, the others at the shop preserve
it for continued (safe) use.

--dl*
====

SpitfireTriple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
  • Seek Truth
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 11:02:29 AM »
I considered that argument then rejected it.  So too would any court.

Would you, Dan, risk your life, or allow a grandchild's life to be risked, on a knot that "Rumor has it that an employee (and knot enthusiast) tied it long ago and currently remains a mystery to all."

Damn sure I wouldn't.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: Name this mystery knot
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 05:14:01 PM »
I considered that argument then rejected it.  So too would any court.

What a court might do is irrelevant, here -- they have a legacy
of doing stupid things and don't need that bolstered.

Quote
Would you, Dan, risk your life, or allow a grandchild's life to be risked, on a knot that "Rumor has it that an employee (and knot enthusiast) tied it long ago and currently remains a mystery to all."

You're indulging in superstitions, ignoring the hard facts:  the knot has
served well ...
for this extended duration; knots don't magically fail
all of a sudden.  In any case, the knot is no longer a riddle to me (which
puts me outside of this question, I know).

Quote
Damn sure I wouldn't.

Don't be so sure you haven't done similarly already.  Many who are put
on the "sharp end" of a climbing line are fairly clueless about what it is
that binds then to it; and some things hyped as some sort of Great
Thing (e.g., the cordelette anchor structure) and used by many of
people turn out on scrutiny to be something less great.

Would you prefer to tie on a (pure, simple, nothing more) Bowline ?

--dl*
====