Author Topic: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread  (Read 16832 times)

Mike

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Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« on: February 22, 2010, 01:44:20 AM »
I have some nylon upholstry thread that plan to use for some small craft projects.  I tried tying a constrictor and double constrictor knot around a small metal pole, both knots was able to be worked loose very easily by tugging on the tails.  Are there any knots that work better in small thread?

skyout

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 01:56:45 AM »
Nylon you can melt the ends into a little ball so it can't be drawn thru the knot, or just tie a couple of square knots (I'm not sure of the correct name) on top of it.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 03:32:25 AM by skyout »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 03:59:29 AM »
It might be suitable for you to finish the Constrictor
with an *Overhand*/simple knotting of the ends atop
the binder, to lock them.  You should orient the ends
--i.e., make this Simple knot (which is the same as
completing a Reef knot)-- so that they run along
/parallel to the crossing part of the Constrictor.
This sort of completion has been put forward as
"Gunner's Knot" in mistake, for a Clove hitch; but
it works fairly well there and perhaps has an even
surer grip with the Constictor, though this might
depend upon the nature of the material.  (It just
seemed quite good in some 3/32" solid braid.)

(Note that it is fashionable to write in a knots book
that the Constrictor will grip so surely that it must
be cut off!)

In general, it should be noted that the loading of the
Constrictor's ends (can't really find "SParts" in a
binder, can we?!) is oriented to pull them out, with
the deflection of them over each other (distinguishing
the knot from the Clove hitch/binder); i.e., there
is no U-turn of the material to help stem the slow yield
under continuous tension and perhaps also continual
agitation.  The extension that I suggest above will give
such a u-turn (as the ends turn to be Simple-knotted).

Another tactic to use to try to improve the security of
the Constrictor in situations where it might be suspect
(which is to point out that it can be darn tight!) is to
have one end u-turn and be tucked under a turn of
the binder, and then the other end can be passed
through the bight formed by the first end and thus
nipped when the 1st end is finally hauled tight.

The point about melting is also good, and you might
be able to do this carefully with some heated small
metal, and maybe even a match -- sometimes I've
been able to smear the melted ball-end onto the
knot, when it has melted close to contact (and if
maybe burning a bit -- though Nylon & Polyester
should not burn w/o supporting flame, long,
unlike PP & PES).

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:47:29 AM by Dan_Lehman »

KenY

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 08:03:14 AM »
Mike,
If you run your thread through some bees wax first, you will find what ever knot you use, it will not walk back, well most ( sorry about the jargon-it will not slip,)

Ken.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 05:50:12 PM by KenY »

roo

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 07:21:44 PM »
I have some nylon upholstry thread that plan to use for some small craft projects.  I tried tying a constrictor and double constrictor knot around a small metal pole, both knots was able to be worked loose very easily by tugging on the tails.  Are there any knots that work better in small thread?

I know your title says "binding", but you need to describe what you are doing better.  If you were tugging on one of the tails, then you are treating the structure as a hitch rather than a binder, and the constrictor will perform poorly.

So please describe what the demands of the task are.

In the mean time, you could also see if a Boa Knot causes you simliar difficulties:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/boaconstrictor.html
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 07:31:57 PM by roo »
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Mike

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 02:19:33 AM »
Dan, I like the idea of the overhand knots to help secure it.   And melting the ends is not a bad idea either.

Roo, I will be using the thread for many small projects. the constrictor is just one of many knots i will use for various things, and just happens to be the first knot I tested with this thread.  I only tugged on the tail to see how well it holds up compared to other types of cordage.  It pulled loose with just a couple tugs.  It may be because, with such a small diameter thread,  there isn't enough contact to create friction.

KenY

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 12:57:11 PM »
Mike, I also do a lot of work with upholstry thread, mainley because it was free, and because it is such a darn big spool, and it will most likely see me out.

On this web site you can see some of my work:- under members work you can see my 'Naval Watchkeeping Telescope' that has 54 constrictor knots inside it. My Sea Chest Beckets (the green box ) has 50 , and the earrings have two gunners hitches each.

With my constrictor knot, I tuck the centre strand with at least 5 riding turns (similar to a surgeon knot) so it doese not walk back.

When securing the knot the secret is to pull both ends at the same time. The tools I work with on small stuff are a pair of 'Maun' parallel pliers and a small pair of forceps( get these at the cheap tool man on street markets), clamp onto both ends, one tool in each hand. Otherwise the thread will cut into your fingers like cheese wire.

Personally, I think it is a brave man or woman, who has the urge to divide knot tying between practical and decorative; when inside some of the most decorative work are basic-practical- knots, that on occations have been tied with teeth and or one hand.
Knot Tying is like music, the more you do it the better you get, and always practice before you pick up or cut the exspencive stuff.

Yours Aye

Ken
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 11:30:02 AM by KenY »

roo

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 06:02:37 PM »
Roo, I will be using the thread for many small projects. the constrictor is just one of many knots i will use for various things, and just happens to be the first knot I tested with this thread.  I only tugged on the tail to see how well it holds up compared to other types of cordage.  It pulled loose with just a couple tugs.  It may be because, with such a small diameter thread,  there isn't enough contact to create friction.

It pulled loose because it isn't a hitch.  Never has been.  You don't need a binder to contain a single metal pole or rod as if it is going to expand or because you need to hold it together.

It's a little like noting that the timber hitch isn't a good binder when the standing part is slack.  The timber hitch isn't designed to be a binder.  The timber hitch is designed to be a hitch, regardless of friction, contact, or line diameter.

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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 08:17:18 PM »
(Ken, there's something peculiar about your post:
 -  what a HUGE amount of space you sign off with !

.:.  You could do well by editing away the space!
)

With my constrictor knot, I tuck the centre strand with at least 5 riding turns (similar to a surgeon knot) so it does not walk back.

With "riding turns" you had me going for the cross wraps of
extended Constrictors/Strangles, which ride over the underlying
Simple/Overhand interlacing of the ends; but "similar to a Surgeon knot"
points in a different direction --that of the ends making much more
than a "Simple" knotting (which will extend well beyond the cross
turn(s), and make it more difficult to tighten with a straight,
tangential pull).

So, what exactly do you mean?
Does the basic Constrictor have any "riding turns" in your
thinking?  (If so, how many:  I'd see possibly two , which
begs the question of how to achieve five or any odd number!?)

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 07:39:16 AM by Dan_Lehman »

KenY

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 12:10:25 PM »
Dan
Sorry about the space at the end,fixed now,I only wanted to move the post down one click,to sign off. I should stick to knot tying next time.
The rest is, our use of words, I am not inclined to use the word 'wrap' unless it is for bandages or sandwhiches. Unless it is a macrame pattern, and they call a common whipping a wrap knot. 'Macrame projects' isbn 085219675x.
So turn,tuck,wind,serpentine, but it does go round the lower part of a constrictor. I use the word 'Surgeon Knot' to imply it snakes its way around another part. Page 35 of the Manual of Sugical Knots by Bashir A Zikria is an example, forget the ends.
Please remember the line we are working with is finer than ' Button Thread' so we are not constructing a formal knot like a Turks Head to be looked at,it is a binding knot or Warping Strand quote; Page 111 Knots,Splices and Fancywork (Spencer). The main work is Spanish Hitching with 42 Hitching Starands, and they have to be braced in, in turn, so it is a jiggle between the warping strands and the hitching strands. Then you have to keep the end of the warping strand out, so it can pass down to commence the next constrictor,and on,and on.
 Ken.

sharky

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2010, 11:47:05 AM »
Dang...lost me on that one...got any pics you can put up to help us out?
Sharky

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 08:29:46 AM »
Of course the Dahmer "twist" or TurNip can be used. Whether it is practical depends on mileage. I have been using it extensively since it was put on this board for the first time, and it holds well in any cordage, although in the more slippery stuff an extra twist or two might be practical. Just as the constrictor, it is not a hitch, but unlike the constrictor, it does not slip when the bundle it is tied around moves, and it does not rely on convexity of the bound object.
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Mike

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 12:38:48 AM »
Of course the Dahmer "twist" or TurNip can be used. Whether it is practical depends on mileage. I have been using it extensively since it was put on this board for the first time, and it holds well in any cordage, although in the more slippery stuff an extra twist or two might be practical. Just as the constrictor, it is not a hitch, but unlike the constrictor, it does not slip when the bundle it is tied around moves, and it does not rely on convexity of the bound object.

What is the Dahmer "Twist" ?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 07:16:03 AM »
What is the Dahmer "Twist" ?

Aka the "Gleipnir" (which incorporates a "turNip"), it is presented
here:  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.0 .

This will perhaps be trickier to tie than the Constrictor or Clove;
it can also be tied off somehow.  It's great binder to use *over air*
-- i.e., with little to impede the flow of tension through the system
(unlike around a rough object, where the surface friction will make
it hard to draw tight enough to grip in the turNip).

--dl*
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Re: Binding Knot for Nylon Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 12:23:29 PM »
When objects are rough or the cordage very elastic, I have found that jerking the turNip back and forth holding tight to both ends will help it to nip. So far I have succeeded to get it to grip every time, n.b. used in small stuff. The most tricky stuff is the highly elastic stuff as shock cord, but even shock cord can be used, provided a bit of help with a keen hand.
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