Author Topic: The Lexicon of Knotology  (Read 53473 times)

alpineer

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2010, 08:20:11 AM »
I favor "eye knot".

This is an important distinction which perhaps even Dan L. may not fully appreciate.  "Eye" is a term which is broader in scope than "Loop" (This is a good thing). I could elaborate more on this now, but, as I'm in process of putting meat on some conceptual bones would prefer to do so later. Eye see less mis/uninformed controversy adopting this term than for other knot forms being discussed, and so suggest this could/should be the first item to be ratified and thereby get something hard on the books.

alpineer      
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 04:15:16 PM by alpineer »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2010, 03:08:11 AM »
I'd rather wait to learn more of this eye-opening perspective,
and have some idea of where it might lead (skeletons in the
closet being bad things).  So, your meaty insight is eagerly
awaited (and I'll not as long as we've awaited Agent_Smith
to return to testing activity).

 :)

sharky

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2010, 10:20:33 AM »
Hey guys...Just wanted to get my 2 cents in on this naming thing. In my opinion, Latin is kind of a Greek dialect. Having been a student of Greek for 2 years, and Latin for 1, the amount of root words that are the same or similar is astounding. Most medical terms, many of which people say are Latin, come straight from the Greek language. In this context, joining a Greek conjugation to a Latin root would not be considered outlandish or improper. However, in the interest of keeping knotting simple and understandable for the masses now and those to come, we should strive for simplicity and clarity. Therefore if one wants to name the study of knots, "Knotology" would be my choice. Whoever hears it will understand what it means. Ask a sailor from 100 years ago what they would have called it, and the likely response would be, "It's me job!" I vote for "Knotology" for clearness, understandability, and ease of translation into other languages. My second choice would be "Knotty Science" ;D
Sharky

DaveRoot

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2010, 05:28:10 PM »
This post is a digression into the chessboard that may one day serve to be our workench of Nodology, and as such it has no direct reason to be posted here, other than that to be able to talk about it, we will need first to have created the necessary terminology to visualise and reference it.

So here goes with a first stab at creating the workspace of Nodology.

First, I would like to introduce an axis of 'knottiness' or 'entanglement' or 'interference'.  

At its origin is a straight piece of cord exhibiting zero 'knottiness'.  

As we move away from zero, we might come across the cord wound snake like, but never touching, then wound up into a tidy coil or laid out snake like, then overlaid snake like at right angles to the first layer - the complexity is getting greater but we are still describing a family without enforced entanglement.

Moving yet further, we might come across numerous cords interwoven as a flat weave.  We could pull any single cord out of the weave, but the weave now acts as a coherent whole and can take and distribute force through its structure.

Next along might be the closed weave where the 'weft' cord traverses back and forth between the many 'warp' yarns, and following closely are the plaits, braids and then the circular Turks Head arrangements wherin the entanglement essentially amounts to nothing more than interweaving, yet entanglement is extreme through the extent of the interweaving - we can no longer simply pull cords out of these structures.

Yet further along would be simpler constructions, yet they would now be exhibiting intrinsic entanglement, such that despite their simplicity, they could not be pulled out - for example a cord containing a simple overhand knot.

From here on, the entanglement / interference simply get more and more complex and in theory passing on to the mythical Gordian Knot (and beyond ?).


The second axis describes the degree of 'penetration' or 'involvement'

All of the structures described so far on the knottiness axis involve zero 'penetration' and so are strung out in a line on one side of the workspace.  However, this second axis is complex and subject to recursion, i.e. a braid can form a cord which finishes up back on the zero penetration axis being used to make the structures we have already seen on the 'knottiness' axis.

Ignoring the recursive nature of this axis for the moment, the first encounter we might meet would be a splice in three strand laid rope, where the structure involves entering the structure of the cordage by one level of structural complexity.  The splice though, being essentially a braid like structure would sit out in the board, lined up with braid on the 'knottiness' axis and with primary component on the penetration axis.

Penetration into cords with more complex structures would sit further along this axis as indeed would the construction of the thread, strings, ropes etc, themselves.

Sewing through a cord penetrates to the finest structures, so will sit far out along this axis as will glueing which penetrates yet further, right to the molecular level.

So you see we need some words.  A good term to use for 'knottiness' and a term to use when talking about 'penetration' and then some words for varying degrees of these parameters (I don't think numbers are particularly good for perception).

Any offers?

Derek

Hi Derek,

For your first axis:

"Knottiness" is the noun form of "knotty," which means:

  "having knots; full of knots"
  "Tied or snarled in knots."
  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/knottiness)

 
"Entanglement" means:

  "something that entangles; snare; involvement; complication."
  "To twist together or entwine into a confusing mass; snarl"
  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entanglement)


"Interference" means:

  "The act or an instance of hindering, obstructing, or impeding."
  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/interference)


Therefore, if my proposed definition of "N.Knot" is acceptable (in the Nodeology wiki at http://nodeology.pbworks.com/Bindings-Terms), then "N.Knottiness" would seem to be the best choice for your first axis.


For your second axis:

"Penetration" means:

  "The act or process of piercing or penetrating something"
  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/penetration)
 

"Involvement" doesn't appear to have a useful definition in this context at dictionary.reference.com, but here are some other ideas:


"Infiltration" means:

  "to filter into or through; permeate."
  "to pass into or through a substance, place, etc., by or as by filtering."
  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infiltrate)


"Piercingness" is the noun form of "pierce," which means:

  "to penetrate into or run through (something), as a sharp, pointed dagger, object, or instrument does."
  "to make (a hole, opening, etc.) by or as by boring or perforating."
  "to make a way or path into or through"
  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/piercing)


In addition, dictionary.reference.com distinguishes between "pierce" and "penetrate" in this way:

"PIERCE, PENETRATE suggest the action of one object passing through another or making a way through and into another. The terms are used both concretely and figuratively. To PIERCE is to perforate quickly, as by stabbing; it suggests the use of a sharp, pointed instrument which is impelled by force: 'to pierce the flesh with a knife' ; 'a scream pierces one's ears.'  PENETRATE suggests a slow or difficult movement: 'No ordinary bullet can penetrate an elephant's hide' ; 'to penetrate the depths of one's ignorance.'" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/piercing)

Based on these definitions, "pierce" might be a better choice than "penetrate" for your second axis.


Concerning the varying degrees of these parameters, perhaps we should simply start with expressions such as "a low degree of N.Knottiness" and "x has a higher degree of N.Knottiness than y does" and so on, with the understanding that adjustments will need to be made along the way.

Dave


DaveRoot

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2010, 05:31:14 PM »
Hey guys...Just wanted to get my 2 cents in on this naming thing. In my opinion, Latin is kind of a Greek dialect. Having been a student of Greek for 2 years, and Latin for 1, the amount of root words that are the same or similar is astounding. Most medical terms, many of which people say are Latin, come straight from the Greek language. In this context, joining a Greek conjugation to a Latin root would not be considered outlandish or improper. However, in the interest of keeping knotting simple and understandable for the masses now and those to come, we should strive for simplicity and clarity. Therefore if one wants to name the study of knots, "Knotology" would be my choice. Whoever hears it will understand what it means. Ask a sailor from 100 years ago what they would have called it, and the likely response would be, "It's me job!" I vote for "Knotology" for clearness, understandability, and ease of translation into other languages. My second choice would be "Knotty Science" ;D

Hi Sharky,

What would be the Latin or Greek for the study of bindings (which can include knots, splices, etc.)?

Dave


sharky

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2010, 11:55:16 PM »
Guess we would be talking about the noun rather than the verb...in Greek would be "desimo" for general bindings. Greek language gets very specific for the use of bindings like bibliodesima for book bindings and such...better not to get into linguistics...but keep it simple...We don't need a complicated word for knots...
Sharky

SpitfireTriple

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2010, 04:19:44 PM »
I'm a newbie here (reckon I've got at least 6 months' to use that excuse) and most of this is way over my head.  But that's never stopped me chipping in on other forums.

Hi Derek and Dave,

As usual, you two are way out in front of all and thank you for that!  I have a minor suggestion - if we use the term "-logy" to end the word describing knotting (root of -logy is Greek as in -logo or Latin as in -logia) then perhaps using the same root to describe "knot" is appropriate?  The word for studying knots then comes out as Nodology - what do you think of that?   SR


Call to all you academics out there...  So I have to ask those who might know - should the term in fact be Nodeology (with an 'e').  I have to admit, I feel considerably better at the inclusion of an 'e'.  Perhaps also, if this field ever touches the heady heights of University study, students might have an easier time if we drop the little yellow coupe association as quickly as possible.

Note - Lasse uses the tag line of 'Nodeo, ergo sum' which he tells me is his version of 'I knot, therefore I am'.  Although light hearted, I can't think of a more appropriate sentiment.   Derek

Here's a quote from the knottyers Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knottyers/message/7035):

      "According to University of Notre Dame on-line dictionary:
      http://www.archives.nd.edu/latgramm.htm

      nodus -i m. [a knot; a girdle; any tie , bond, connection, obligation;
      a knotty point, difficulty].
      nodo -are [to knot , tie in a knot].
      nodosus -a -um [full of knots , knotty].

      Neither "nodi" nor "nodology" are listed in their book

      According to "Collins Pocket Latin Dictionary:

      nodo - (verb transitive) "to knot, tie"
      nodosus (adjective) "knotty"
      nodus (masculine) figurative "knot, knob, girdle, knotty point"

      In addition the suffix "ology" is an informal Greek noun, so whether
      it could be added to a Latin word is debatable."


So Nodology and Nodeology might both be incorrect (mixing a Latin prefix with a Greek suffix).  It looks like "kombos" is the Greek word for knot: http://www.greekkomboloi.com/.   Personally, I prefer Knotology because it's clear and unambiguous, and therefore it avoids confusion.   I'll post some thoughts on the Wiki soon.    Dave

Mixing our Greek with our Latin:  There is, of course, some precedent for this:  TeleVision.  And if Greek can be mixed with Latin, then English can be mixed with Latin.  Which leads us safely to Knotology.

Having said that, I do not wish to tread on the toes of someone (the paper-strip origamists) who have already coined the word Knotology.  We may feel we have far more right to the word, and we are much bigger than them, but we should show graciousness in our might.

Which leads me, personally, towards Nodology.  Besides, it sounds more "important" than mere "Knotology".  

Should it be Nodology or Nodeology?  My Latin is not up to making the decision, but I'd suggest we look at similar words,  where a noun with a long final vowel and ending in the letter "e" is converted to an "~ology".  We should, however, bear in mind that many 'ologies appear to have been formed not from an english noun ending in an "e", but from an earlier Latin root - in our particular case, nod~ rather than node.  Here's a list of words ending in "~ology".   Okay, "Ideology", "Theology" and "Arch(a)eology" are  common examples of such a word, but their "e" is pronounced - would we want the e" in "Nodeology" to be pronounced?  I wouldn't have thought so.

Precedent isn't everything, but in the absence of a good reason to the contrary I'd argue we should follow precedent.  My vote (not that I'm suggesting that this is a democracy, and if it is, my vote should be under-weighted) would therefore be for Nodology

I fully understand (I think!) Derek's point about "this is a language for the knot geeks" or words to that effect.  I recognise that such a language has different needs from the language used by "normal" people.  Nevertheless, it would be nice if it can share as much with normal English as possible.  As regards the dot notation - I'm guessing, Derek, you are a big fan of Object-Oriented programming?  My favourite language is Ruby  But even Excel can produce unexpected benefits; a while ago I translated a pile of pension legislation into an Excel app.  One of the things that surprised me was that the discipline of writing the Excel formulas etc exposed ambiguities and weaknesses in the legislation, the understanding of the legislation, and the application of the legislation.  I suspect the same is likely to prove true of progress towards encoding the knotting process.  Even if the resulting code/lexicon is not used much, the exercise of creating it will prove to have been usefully illuminating.  I suspect the only tangible value (though I concede it could be a significant value) of an improved written language of knots would be as an aid in computerising the knotting process.  I suspect Derek and Dave and co are way ahead of me on this.

Finally, one of the things that has amazed (and perhaps disappointed) me on the IGKT forum generally is that people use language to describe knots when a photo or two would be a hundred times more meaningful.  It takes time and effort to arrange a knot neatly, clearly showing cross-over points etc, to photograph it and then to load up the photo, but it is so much more intelligible to a human than is any written description.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 07:46:20 PM by SpitfireTriple »

squarerigger

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »
Thanks Spitfire,

Nicely phrased and intelligible.  I also take Derek's point about the little yellow car (Noddy and big ears fame) where one could conceivably interpret that as Noddology, but I found that a bit of a stretch.  Your point about "nodeeology" is a good one when it comes to pronunciation.  Nodology does seem more in line with our overall "nod" to the ancients and to the more modern, whereas "Nodeology" seems to come to a point (node = point) that may not be as readily understood.  Just a perspective, after all, and why worry?  We should just agree and move forward.

SR
 

DaveRoot

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2010, 06:20:28 PM »
Hi SpitfireTriple,

It's interesting that people who do origami have adopted the word "knotology," but I guess origami sometimes involves tying knots in paper...

One thing we've realized is that "nodology" and "nodeology" and "knotology" all focus on knots, and they ignore other types of bindings such as splices and so on.  Therefore, it would be good to find a more comprehensive term which essentially has the meaning of "binding-ology."  Derek came up with "nectology," and according to Sharky it should perhaps be "desimology."  Thoughts?


The lexicon discussion has moved to a wiki that Derek created (go to http://nodeology.pbworks.com and click the "Lexicon of Nodeology" link, then click "Bindings Terms" and explore the links).  There's a growing list of definitions for the parts of a knot and actions on a knot and types of knots and other types of bindings, so take a look and add some feedback to help improve the lexicon.  Thanks!

Dave


SpitfireTriple

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2010, 08:10:20 PM »
Okay, I'm off there now.  I assume this is effectively a closed thread.

Oh, I found out more about "knotology" simply by googling the word.  Here's one site I reached.  There's actually some rather beautiful stuff there.  Especially if, like me, you're interested in Islamic tiling, the Golden Ratio and Penrose tiles.


But who would have thought that a Latin for for binding would contain the word string?  Surely Latin is not the origin of the word?

One on-line translater gave these options for binding:
redimio, adstringo, necto, evinxi, evictum, evincio, connecto

Alternatively,

adstringo :  (persons) bind, oblige, (+ refl.) commit oneself to
adstringo : to tight, compress, compact /
adstringo : to draw together, tighten, bind.  I like this
constringo constrixi constrictum :  to bind, confine, restrain.
construo construxi constructum : to construct, build, arrange.

One last thought though.  I believe it was Humpty Dumpty who once said,

"A word means exactly what I want it to mean. No more, and no less."

Frankly, if an institution as august as the International Guild of Knot Tyers states that the word "Nodology" (or "Nodeology if we must) means the science and study of knots, including splices, then who on earth will argue?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 09:59:14 PM by SpitfireTriple »

DerekSmith

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2010, 08:18:48 PM »
Hi Andrew,

Yes, I dabble in OOP (Delphi) but Dave is way beyond my standard - he has put all the 'working' extras to KnotMaker.

I take particular note of your comment re 'finding the ambiguities' once you start to lay down clear definitions.  Exactly this has happened with the proposed name of the field.  I kicked in with 'Knotology' - Nodology anad Nodeology (hopefully pronounced (No - de - ology), only to realise that knots are but a part of the field we aspire to describe.

I realised that I had started us off in the wrong place - we needed a term for the whole field of bindings, of which 'Knots' is but a sub section.

I used Translation Guide to translate 'binding' to Latin and was rewarded with

redimio, adstringo, necto, evinxi, evictum, evincio, connecto

I then used the same service to translate the terms back to English (which is often the killer) and found that Necto returned -- to tie up, bind, fasten, to fasten together

So, dropping the 'o' and adding 'ology'  arrived at Nectology  which I take to be the field of binding, fastening and tying

NB  Connectology also had a logical association but was a little bit too Leggo-esque / Potter-esque to take forward.

This is very much our first pass at attacking the challenge, and we are going to see glaring issues both in the field as it now stands and in the developing field as we explore it, exactly as you have pointed out.  The key will be not to be precious about anything, but to be bold and constructive in the creation of usable terminology.  It is going to be a very big field, and we will probably only be able to work on small parts of the overall field as expertise / interest in those areas comes available.

So - trouble right at the 'Get-Go' and we need a binding type name and I am now putting up 'Nectology' as an Aunt Sally for thoughts and comments.

Derek
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 08:51:30 PM by DerekSmith »

squarerigger

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2010, 08:30:45 PM »
Dave and Derek,

Nectology has a very good ring to it - logical and useful for those who know and no connotations of weirdness for those who do not know.  Well done!

SR
PS  I do like the idea of including part of connected in there....

DerekSmith

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2010, 08:49:06 PM »
Wow,  flying back and forth between writing the post and watching the bolognese sauce cook and I completely missed the cross post - talk about a case of Synchronicity ! !

Nee Nah Nee Nah..

Derek

SpitfireTriple

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2010, 09:28:49 PM »
I like stringology!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 09:17:34 AM by SpitfireTriple »

sharky

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Re: The Lexicon of Knotology
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2010, 09:52:08 PM »
It seems that we might be viewing the problem backwards...we are trying to decide what to call this based on the definition of what it entails...perhaps we should be trying to settle on a definition in the context of what we do, and then naming it. Let's take the field of "safety science" for example. We could go on forever trying to explain the word, "accident". What they have done is to write their own definition of accident: An unplanned event that causes more than $25 damage or loss of more than 4 man hours. "Accident" is a pretty ambiguous term in itself, but with the accompanying definition, becomes very specific and clear. So let's try building a definition of what we do as far as knotting, binding, splicing, and etc... then give it a name.
Sharky