Author Topic: Can of worms:naming knots  (Read 10733 times)

Willeke

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Re: Can of worms:naming knots
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2005, 09:09:34 PM »
Mel, this is what a few people, each on his or her own, seems to be trying right now.
It is good to know that you are willing to help when we get to the "get this on the web" stage. I will remember.
Right now we have to work out a practicle way to work together rather than each doing the same in different ways.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Can of worms:naming knots
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2005, 09:48:35 PM »
Quote
To what purpose therefore would such a project lend itself?  To have a catalogue of knot names?

Perhaps just to help draw awareness to the knot-naming confusion.  So, one vision
of this product would be a reference that could take "Naut's Knot" and match it
to, say, three uses of the name (references cited).  --along with commentary about
the references (not to exclude critiques such as "Wielner seems to have got his name
by misreading Johansen's work").

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Classifying basic utility knots by shape might have some benefit and I can see that this would be a feasible project with a finite basis.  Would that satisfy?  I would be happy to work with you or any other member on such a project.  Perhaps you could spend some time outlining your task more clearly so that we could have a basis for moving forward?

The notion of shape I'd say can be either logical or physical.
I.e., one might make one representation of the SheetBend-Bowline-Meshknot
general structure, which would be more of a logical sense, as the actual
geometry of the respective members of the set differ from each other, as results
from their resp. loadings (Opposite-Side Sheet Bend sets rather squarely, the more
generally specified Same-Side (ends, i.e.) Sheet Bend sets with somewhat
*skewed* physique; and as the Becket H. loads a different 3 ends than the Bowline,
it has a different precise shape.

----------
Quote

Since IGKT "self- attributed" ambition and mission is to be "THE REFERENCE" in knotting matters
that would be a breach of self-appointed duty not to, at least, try.
...
What I believe about error management
Zero tolerance approach ( for the errors/mistakes only not for persons)
...
Past errors should not be "respected", (respected as in "let them live and grow").  
Errors ofshould be branded "interesting historical data" and unmercifully put right ( till the next revision...).  
Branded and left in the past and certainly not accepted in the present lest they are propulsed in the future.

I strongly concur in these sentiments, both about the task and its value, and
about who is well chartered to undertake the task.  And I believe that the resulting
product should be promulgated with some deliberate effort to various user groups
of knots.

--dl*
====

Willeke

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Re: Can of worms:naming knots
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2005, 10:00:52 PM »
See my post in the tread on ABOK,   http://www.igkt.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1126472592

There I propose a way to get started.

Willeke
« Last Edit: September 13, 2005, 10:03:39 PM by Willeke »
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

nautile

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Re: Can of worms:naming knots
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2005, 05:19:35 PM »
Hi Webmistress.
Good constructive post in my opinion.
Said that to Willeke a moment ago about one of her post in 'ABOK compacted' where she quoted your post.

Will give you a sweet sentence to both as a thank you :
"Women are to men what sails are to tall ships, they make them go forward"

nautile

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Hommage to Frank Charles Brown
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2005, 03:02:24 PM »
Hello everybody !


Hi Frank Charles Brown this is in hommage to your pionneering work Thank Fairlead for your go-between role.


all quote are from Frank mails. Why amI putting this post instead of him : well practicality, web time and so forth.



Quote
Please feel free quote me if you think anything I write is worth passing on...

Oh in my view it is quite worth it

...


Quote
I was trying to build a dictionary. What I proposed was a catalogue--- a listing of all published knots. The basics of my proposal are
1. Every knot be given a specific, unique number. This should overcome the problem of multiple names in multiple languages. It would establish an international reference similar to the CAS system used to identify chemicals. That system, by the way, is up to over 20 000 000 now I believe. There are an infinite number of knots, and an infinite number of numbers.
2 The numbering system could be designed to give some form of identification of the type of knot. Consider the Dewey system for classifying books.
3 Adopt the principles of the Linneaus system for sorting the different categories---- variant/ sub-species, species, genera, families, orders. I don't think is is  necessary to go any further than that with knots.
4 Use a spread sheet to for catalogue. Enter different identifying characteristics --- I can send you details of these if you are interested.
5 For each knot have picture of at least obverse and reverse views, plus a schematic drawing.
6 Publish material on dedicated web site under control of IGKT possibly sponsored by a nice rich rope making company.  
I lack the necessary skills to set up and run such a site--- at this time anyway. I also think it should be a group effort.

I started all this stuff years ago and worked out most of the above by the Fareham meet on '02. Not done a lot since as have been occupied with a few other items, like developing more string animals...restoration of a 19th century ketch, and...

...


Next in series is an example of drawing knots using Microsoft Draw. I have got the method pretty well under control I think, but have not done a lot of drawings lately...


Well! that are quite elegant and clear drawings.
Go to my Yahoo album entitler Frank Charles BROWN work. Or mail to me direct ( address is not hidden . sorry, does feel right to give you Franck mail, but I will gladly forward your mail if you ask that I do it) to ask for "full size" files.





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So attached is Surgeon's knot...but as it has been noted, surgeons would call it a ligature, no? C'est n'est pas logique--- if I remember the phrase correctly. Anyway, note the variation possible. I am proposing that each be given its specific identification code as per examples. International name!!

Album again or mail.





Quote
Anyway, attached is the  system I am working from for knot classification. I got the original idea from Rob Chisnall in Canada. (We correspond infrequently nowadays, but swap the occasional e-mail.) What I like about the system is it is open ended and can be added to with ease. I have actually added to  it since I first launched into the project. I think I have got something reasonable for Bends, and have made a start on Hitches Loops and Nooses, but have not tested the system for them.

...



One of the identifiers I have used is the way the working ends exit from the knot, and I think my descriptions could be improved--- maybe using anatomical nomenclature.

...


I think I understand what you are saying about names, and I would love to see list comparing the names of the top twenty knots in every language. But, when it comes to cataloguing, an international system is required, and I reckon using numerical tags is the most logical. In English, the majority of the names for the "established" knots and the terms associated with rope work stem from nautical sources. I assume somthing similar would apply in any country with a significant maritime history. Would be interesting to know the knotting vocabulary of landlocked countries.

...


Having returned to the subject after a long absence, and reading the comments, I am presently of the opinion that there are enough people interested to make a start.

"How do you eat an elephant?-------------- One mouthful at a time"

I chose to start my own little project with " Bends" after a lot of perusing of the books in my possession, or the library. If nothing else, a systematic presentation of just this family would be of some interest. Lessons learned in assembling the list could/should be used in compiling other lists--- if anybody gets the urge.

The only original contribution I have made I believe is the idea of coding the location of working ends exiting a knot as an identifier. Charles Warner's ideas on Nip, and Roger Miles stuff on Symmetry were begging to be used. Geoff Budworth's "Knots & Crime" showed the use of Crossings. Miles also reinforced ideas on construction elements, but I don't like his term "Marginal Knots".
So have fun with this lot.

Had a further think about carrying on from ABOK with a numbering system. Good poltically, but a bit messy IMHO. Ashley has his place in history well and truly established. No scholastic venture in liingst knots could justifiably ignore him.

So--- I recommend clean sheet start. Prefer tackling a definite category and doing a thourough job. Every big problem can be broken down into a set of small problems---- well it can in this case. Putting together a list of a specific group, including drawings, pictures would be very basic, quite an effort, and of some value to quite a few people. Embellishment of this list could follow. I have collected about 200 Bends. Not on file yet, just hand draw cards. Got to do something with it while still capable.
I will now go back and rethink why this needs or should be done apart from wanting to do it.

nautile

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Re: Can of worms:naming knots
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2005, 03:03:07 PM »
Album pertaining to the above post is

http://fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/innominedarnold/album?.dir=a24b&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

May be  you will want bigger pics then go to

http://charles.hamel.free.fr/FrankCharlesBrown/
Please do not mess my precious files.


All pics here are stricly Frank Charles Brow personnal work

The database ( works) that Frank Charles Brown is not easy to put as pics in the album

So you will only have the .doc files I was able to "translate" in pics.


If you want contact with Frank Charles Brown please use my (not hidden) address and I will forward.



I hope that all the accumulated idea here will not go to the waste heap.

Well if it does, it will make for fertilizer some day in a more favorable soil.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 06:04:49 PM by nautile »

nautile

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Re: Can of worms:naming knots
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2005, 12:11:15 AM »
Last batch received from Frank Charles Brown

Frank Charles Brown gave some news documentations that you will find on my web site at Frank charle brown Work

http://charles.hamel.free.fr/SITE%20PRIVATE/nautile-charles.hamel.html
Individual accesse for each document:

Newly made : F.C.B solved how to represent hitches with DRAW

- - - H1
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/FrankCharlesBrown/H%201.doc


- - - H2
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/FrankCharlesBrown/H2.doc


Some of his old documents to complete the first one given

- - - On Genus Of Bend
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/FrankCharlesBrown/On%20Genus%20of%20Bends.doc

- - - Rules
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/FrankCharlesBrown/Rules.doc

- - - Plan
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/FrankCharlesBrown/PLAN.doc




BTW : go on  http://www.khww.net/
register if you have not already ( free and worth the effort)

Go and see all album but particularily F.C.B's.
His animals in knots are a sight!

http://www.khww.net/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=49