Author Topic: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)  (Read 14269 times)

Andy

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Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« on: November 12, 2009, 04:32:51 PM »
Hello everyone,

Wow, lots of fascinating posts lately!

I wonder what solutions you's might have to a little knotting challenge I had this week.

First, a couple pictures:

 

The knot is in a ~ three-foot / 90cm length of leather. It is meant to suspend objects such as a watch or keys around the neck.

The desired knot must have two features:
1) To close the "big loop" that goes around the neck,
2) To form the "small loop" that prevents the objects from wandering around the big loop.

A knot in the back of the neck would not be comfortable in this material, hence a two-knot solution (big loop bend + small loop) would not work.
The knot depicted is a double fisherman's bend applied in a fairly strange way. It is fairly bulky.

I am really curious about what the collective genius of IGKT would devise for this "problem".  :)

Wishing you all a beautiful day,


Andy

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 02:07:38 AM by Andy Asan »
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roo

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2009, 07:09:18 PM »
One knot, two loops?  Sounds familiar.
  
Thumb through the Double Loop section and the Fancy Knot
section of the Ashley Book of Knots for something that catches your
eye.

You can also retrace a Figure 8 (one end from each side) to make this
junction knot and it should look nice and isn't too tough to tie,
although it won't be a true Figure 8 Loop when you're done:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/figure8loop.html

The same could be done with an overhand knot.

If you like a certain symmetric or nearly symmetric bend, you can
use almost any one you wish to accomplish your lanyard.  Simply
encircle the middle of your line as if it's a passive object with the
two ends as you tie a bend.  The middle portion should go straight
through the axis of the bend in question.  An easy bend to practice
the concept on would be the Zeppelin Bend, as it is abundantly clear
where the middle of the line would pass (parallel to the arrows in the diagram):

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html

You may wish to practice tying bends around a separate cord until you
get the hang of it.

P.S. Inserting foreign objects (including rope) in bends can change
their properties.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 07:45:03 PM by roo »
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Andy

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2009, 08:06:59 PM »

Hi Roo,


Thanks for your reply!!!
That's funny, I didn't even think of two-loop knots, even though I am well-versed in some of them and even have pictures of a bowline with two loops and two-loop Alpine butterfly on my site!

What does this show? It's not only about knowing knots. It's also about having the brains to see a knot differently from how it's normally used. :)

I just tried a bowline with one small loop and one big loop, and it works great to replace the knot in the picture. Not as bulky, though not the handsomest knot. I had tried an 8-rethread before the double fisherman in the picture, and it ate up too much leather.

I'll look through the Ashley section you advised.
Your idea to make a bend around a portion of the rope is a neat generalization of what I did with the double fisherman in the picture. I hadn't even thought of it in the terms you proposed, but it makes complete sense.


Thanks mate!

Best wishes

Andy
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DerekSmith

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 08:59:57 PM »
Hi Andy,

Interesting challenge.  The original seems to be a little strange with the loop legs sticking out the side of the knot(s).

I started off thinking simply of the fishermans, tied with a slipped strand running through the core.  When set, this would grip the strand quite tightly and so resist the loops changing size under use.

However, a little more thought and I made a three strand overhand and perhaps the favourite, a three strand Matthew Walker.

For the three strand OH, tie an OH in one end, making the small loop.  Then take the long end and rethread it into the OH to make this quite attractive knot--

  (large loop to the left)

The three strand MWK tends to be a little harder, but there is a simple fiddle that makes the knot easy.  Make a small bight (to become the small loop), then take a spare length of cord and lay it alongside the two lines of the bight.  Tie a three strand MWK, dress it but do not tighten it down.  Now take the long end and follow the spare cord back into the MWK to trace its path with the long end, then remove the tracer spare cord.  Again dress the knot and then set it.  The remaining ends can either be left for decoration or trimmed off close to the knot and sealed with a drop of cyanoacrilate, but even without this, it is unlikely that they would loosen or migrate out of the knot because the MWK is very stable once set.  This knot is lovely and balanced, with the loop legs coming evenly out of the ends of the knot as here -



Please excuse the fact that they are not in leather.

Derek

skyout

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 10:06:26 PM »
Hi Andy,

Bud has a great tutorial for the Knife lanyard single and double that shows how to make 2 loops for a lanyard, if that's not too bulky for you.

http://khww.net/articles.php?article_id=57
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 10:21:44 PM by skyout »

Andy

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 01:25:24 AM »
Hi Derek, hi Skyout,

Receiving your ideas was like getting a birthday present. Thank you!

Derek:

Quote
tie an OH in one end

To clarifly for the benefit of anyone who might be following, I think you are saying to tie an OH in a bight at one end.
How simple, fast and elegant! I had tried rethreading an 8 in the bight, and it was way too bulky. Love your OH solution.

But your Matthew Walker solution takes the prize for elegance!
I had looked at MWKs but never tied one.
I wasn't sure which one to start with: ABOK 801? 1065?
Can't wait to try your "tracer cord" tip, that sounds grand.
I tried retracing a true lover's loop, but it didn't look anywhere as elegant.

Skyout:
Thanks for sending that tutorial through. That is a gorgeous knot, and it does accomplish the purpose. As you guessed, a bit bulky in leather.


Thanks again everyone.
Wishing you all a beautiful week,


Andy
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 02:05:10 AM by Andy Asan »
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Andy

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 02:04:41 AM »
Hi Roo,

As you suggested, I had a look in ABOK for double loops. Quite a few lovely ones on page 200! It's a shame that half the time I'm unable to follow Ashley's diagrams.
Success with 1103. Compact and symmetrical, "triskel-like".

Thank you.

ABOK# 1103

« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 02:05:50 AM by Andy Asan »
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skyout

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 06:19:38 AM »
I'm glad you liked it even if you aren't using it now. One safety consideration with lanyards is a breakaway connection. You can see several links to them in this thread.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1516.0
Good luck and post a pic up for us!

asemery

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 03:42:30 PM »
  The fiador knot (ABOK #1110) has the advantage of 2 loops to attach keys to. Great for hanging stuff from a belt.  Disregard the 2 color appearance.  That is for clarity in the instructions in the link below.
 

http://www.montevalle.it/rubriche-mainmenu-41/18-fai-da-te/52-come-annodare-un-fiador-knot-per-una-capezza-di-corda.html http://

roo

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 06:56:50 PM »
I'm glad you liked it even if you aren't using it now. One safety consideration with lanyards is a breakaway connection. You can see several links to them in this thread.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1516.0
Good luck and post a pic up for us!

Besides being difficult to draw up a knot due to its grabbiness, the leather cord shown is also pretty weak.  It'll breakaway on its own.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:11:12 AM by roo »
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Andy

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2009, 07:11:59 PM »
Hi everyone!

Asemery, Thank you for the full pictorial of the Fodor!

Roo, I'm curious to see whether the cheap watch outlives the leather! :)

Skyout, the need for a breakaway connection hadn't entered my mind, thanks for mentioning that.

Derek, your Myrtle talk of not long ago came back to mind, and I've been wondering whether a constrictor with one end of the string, tied around a bight in the other end, might be a simple (though not so pretty) solution.

Wishing you all a fun Sunday,

Andy
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 07:13:07 PM by Andy Asan »
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DerekSmith

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 02:30:41 PM »
Hi Andy,

Loved the site, now I see where Asan comes from - Will Shakespeare would have been proud of you.

Derek

Andy

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Re: Knot in leather? (Bend + Loop)
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 04:41:30 PM »
Why, Derek, thank you very much, but as I recall You are the great writer!
Glad to be able to document a few knots.

After two years on the road, heading back to the southern hemisphere next week, starting with a month-long "back-to-earth" campout in New Zealand... Always a great source of knot inspiration because of all the "bush crafts": swings, tripod structures, carpentry using wire to bind logs, kitchens built with lashings, etc... Hoping to take a few pictures this time.

Wishing you a fun week,

Andy
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