Author Topic: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?  (Read 16033 times)

Andy

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 134
  • Five Knots a Day keeps Alzheimer's Away
    • My Selection of Most Useful Knots
Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« on: October 10, 2009, 07:08:46 PM »
Hi Derek,

Thanks for your message,
moving the myrtle discussion to this new thread.

When you first said to pass an end through a constrictor to produce the myrtle, I thought you meant an end of the rope that was used for the constrictor! That's what made that "psychedelic bowline" I asked you about :)
In fact, four different kinds of "psychedelic bowlines", depending on which end of the rope you pass through the constrictor, and depending on whether you enter the constrictor from the front or back

Quote
Found it here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=357.0

Strange, several people on that thread seem to think that the knot is the same as ABOK 1440 or 1445. While the knot I produced following your instructions matches Willeke's diagram, it doesn't seem to match the ABOK knots. Maybe I am missing something? The thread suggests that this is also your understanding (the Myrtle doesn't match ABOK 1440 or 1445), and I just want to clarify this for the record.

Here are pictures to help evaluation: the same Myrtle knot, flipped over left to right on the table to show both orientations. The left picture corresponds to Willeke's diagram.
 

Notice, on the myrtle, the two places where a rope crosses itself (the X'es). On both X'es, the rope that crosses *over* is also going *down* on Willeke's diagram (or up, if you flip the knot over left to right on the table, as in the picture on the right).

This excludes ABOK# 1439, 1442 and 1444, where one rope that crosses over goes up and the other goes down.

I believe that under the "fair use" provision of copyright law it is allowed to post this re-oriented, cleaned-up, lo-res excerpt from ABOK page 263 for this evaluation:

Now notice, on the myrtle, how the very left side of the loop does not sit exactly over the second rope: it goes over, under. Same on the right side. This excludes ABOK 1440 and 1441.

Now notice, on the myrtle picture on the right (where the ropes that cross over both go up), how the left "ass" of the left loop (its bottom) sits on top of the second rope. This excludes ABOK 1443 and 1445.

Therefore, as far as I can tell, the Myrtle is not on that ABOK "Carrick" page (263).

However, in the picture on the right, if you left the blue rope on the table, picked up the red rope and flipped it top to bottom inside the knot, you would get ABOK 1445. But would that make it the same knot? I don't think so, but what do you think, Derek?

I also wonder: Would you use the Myrtle a straight bend? I put it under a fair load and it felt very good, but I wonder what your experience has been with different kinds of rope and widths. Or is the Myrtle knot better when the ropes are crossing and pulling in different directions, as in a net? It looks like it would be great for this kind of X'ing purpose.

Anyhow, thank you so much for showing this knot! I am already starting to grow very fond of it.

Wishing you a beautiful day,

Smiles,

Andy
My Favorite Knots
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 08:08:41 PM by Andy Asan »
my selection of most useful knots

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 10:40:12 PM »
Hi Andy,

Yes, it is the 1445, but as a loop knot rather than as a bend.  When dressed and set, I cannot agree with any of the comments made by Ashley.  Because of the self locking, it is very hard to undo, virtually the only way is to pinch the two outside loops and pull them apart, and if the knot has been well set you need a prod to prise it open.

I have not used it as a bend, so cannot comment on that use.

My most frequent use is to make the constrictor, pass the end around the stake, tree or plant, but instead of simply putting the end into the constrictor, first form a bight in the end and pass the loop into the constrictor.  Then pull the constrictor to make it twirl and you make a myrtle with the primary loop around the 'tree' and a smaller secondary loop at the knot.  I then use the secondary loop as a tensioner, passing the long end around the ground stay, back up and through the little loop, haul it down to tension and finish with a HH or a slipped HH if you need to re-tension at a later date.

Derek

Andy

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 134
  • Five Knots a Day keeps Alzheimer's Away
    • My Selection of Most Useful Knots
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 11:25:53 PM »

Hi Derek,

You are right, it is ABOK 1445, I see it now.

It didn't look the same when flat, but when it sets, one of the sides turns 90 degrees, right in between the Willeke view and the ABOK view.

I followed your description of how you use the myrtle, that's ingenious and fun.

Unrelated, but I'd like to share a little story from a few days ago that led to the discovery of a new use for rope.

At the moment I am spending a couple months in a cabin in the country in north Louisiana (normally I live on a farm in Australia). The other afternoon my lady friend interrupted a conversation with a cold warning: "snake on the living room floor". I turned my head just in time to see a five-foot brown snake moving into the kitchen and under the fridge! I blocked the exit into the living room and opened a door that leads outside to make a nice exit pathway for the snake, then tried to stomp the floor and rock the fridge. Nothing. I started to wonder if the snake had left while I wasn't looking. After trying to move the fridge from a safe height and distance (atop a kitchen counter---impossible), a grabbed a 100-foot rope. My lady friend and I each held a piece of the rope as we stood at different ends of the kitchen counter. I threw some of the middle of the rope behind the fridge, and we started "flossing" the rope down between the fridge and the wall, each pushing and pulling in turn. Still nothing. I rocked the fridge to move the rope underneath. We continued "flossing" (this time between the fridge and the ground), and the snake finally left! We found a skin behind the fridge. It looked like the snake had recently shed.
In Australia there's a python living in the roof of my little cabin. It's a nice living arrangement (fairly typical there) because I attract rats just by being human, and he/she eats the rats. But I'm not yet prepared to have an unidentified snake share the kitchen! No idea what that was, snakes are so hard to identify.

Conclusion: rope is great for flossing fridges. :)

Wishing you a gorgeous weekend,

Smiles,

Andy
my selection of most useful knots

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 12:37:54 AM »
Yes, it is the 1445, but as a loop knot rather than as a bend.

This sounds simple but it's half wrong:  #1445 is asymmetric, so it's a question
of which end is taken qua S.Part -- one way gets this "Myrtle", the other a paradigm
of the "Anti-Bowline", which I prefer.  (Same issue --not much recognized-- as saying
that the Sheet Bend leads to the Bowline:  it does so by only one conversion,
not the other.)

Quote
When dressed and set, I cannot agree with any of the comments made by Ashley.
----
I have not used it as a bend, so cannot comment on that use.

Ashley is talking about the bend, you one eye knot -- so why make
this remark, commenting on Ashley's comment on the bend!?

Quote
Because of the self locking, it is very hard to undo, ...

I don't find it all so "hard" vs. "annoying":  i.e., it doesn't do much "self-locking"
under load, in normal ropes (just put 5:1 on 3/8" nylon laid rope, then in some
old 11mm rockclimbing rope e.g.) (I won't speculate re HMPE, though), but it
also doesn't have an easily priable part to work the loosening.  With the climbing
rope, simply pushing the S.Part & its eye leg worked easily.

Quote from: Andy Asan
In fact, four different kinds of "psychedelic bowlines", depending on which end of the rope you pass through the constrictor, and depending on whether you enter the constrictor from the front or back.

No, you have two entry points, and that's it -- two knots.
(As the Constrictor is symmetric, "which end" isn't a real difference.)

--dl*
====

ps:  I can imagine that an Australian could be seriously afraid of a "brown snake",
but ours aren't like yours (any of your snakes, for that matter!).

 ;)


DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 11:09:28 AM »
Yes, it is the 1445, but as a loop knot rather than as a bend.

This sounds simple but it's half wrong:  #1445 is asymmetric, so it's a question
of which end is taken qua S.Part -- one way gets this "Myrtle", the other a paradigm
of the "Anti-Bowline", which I prefer.  (Same issue --not much recognized-- as saying
that the Sheet Bend leads to the Bowline:  it does so by only one conversion,
not the other.)

OK, I'll go with the half that is right - which ever half that might be - but as ever, I don't understand so please clarify how one end differs from the other and what the "Anti-Bowline" is.

Quote
Quote
When dressed and set, I cannot agree with any of the comments made by Ashley.
----
I have not used it as a bend, so cannot comment on that use.

Ashley is talking about the bend, you one eye knot -- so why make
this remark, commenting on Ashley's comment on the bend!?

Yes, of course you are quite right - the remark was meaningless and I retract it.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 06:42:13 PM »
Yes, it is the 1445, but as a loop knot rather than as a bend.

This sounds simple but it's half wrong:  #1445 is asymmetric, so it's a question
of which end is taken qua S.Part -- one way gets this "Myrtle", the other a paradigm
of the "Anti-Bowline", which I prefer.  (Same issue --not much recognized-- as saying
that the Sheet Bend leads to the Bowline:  it does so by only one conversion,
not the other.)

OK, I'll go with the half that is right - which ever half that might be - but as ever,
I don't understand so please clarify how one end differs from the other and what the "Anti-Bowline" is.

Hmmm, how to re-state what should be perspicuous as is?!

What is the method for deriving an eye knot from a bend?
There are different ways, as might arise from different *directions*
-- i.e., an association of bend/eyeknot might begin with latter
(folks simply chop the Butterfly eye to get the supposed associated
bend, so-named often; but that is NOT what is done with a Bowline,
exactly -- doing so yields the opposite-sides Sheet bend).

The common method is to form one half of the bend with the
rope, then --with a long end here-- bring the tail into this "half"
of the knot as though it were the 2nd rope end to be joined
in the bend, except that the joining creates an eye.

With an asymmetric bend, you get different results depending
upon which "half" is first-formed.  In the case of #1445, if
you start with one loop you'll find the tail re-entering on the
side that the S.Part is on at the loop's crossing point (as one
does for a Bowline), and you get "Myrtle"; but starting with
the other loop the end comes into it from the side that
opposite that that the S.Part lies upon, and you get what I
thus choose to call --for this exact reason-- an "anti-bowline"
(in the sense of "anti-cyclone"/"cyclone") (maybe some
better term ... ?).

--dl*
====

Andy

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 134
  • Five Knots a Day keeps Alzheimer's Away
    • My Selection of Most Useful Knots
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 09:18:19 PM »
Quote
No, you have two entry points, and that's it -- two knots.
(As the Constrictor is symmetric, "which end" isn't a real difference.)

Yes, you're right...
Thanks for this correction :)

-A
my selection of most useful knots

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2009, 06:54:16 AM »
Thanks Dan,

But no matter which half I tie first (the up half or the down half) and no matter which side I bring the tail back into I always finish up with one of the Myrtles ??

Derek

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2009, 08:02:29 AM »
Quote
No, you have two entry points, and that's it -- two knots.
(As the Constrictor is symmetric, "which end" isn't a real difference.)

Yes, you're right...
Thanks for this correction :)

-A

Although you have two entry points, you also have two orientations of wrap for each entry point -wrap to the right or wrap to the left.  Although the differences are trivial, there are four variants for each of the two possible starting loops (loop towards or loop behind) yielding a total of eight possible structures.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 05:20:14 PM »
Thanks Dan,
But no matter which half I tie first (the up half or the down half) and no matter which side I bring the tail back into I always finish up with one of the Myrtles ??

Then obviously you are botching the tying.  Look at #1445:  the
upper RIGHT end is one S.Part; it enters the other rope's loop on
the side of that loop where the end crosses (the underside as
shown); but the lower LEFT end -- the other S.Part -- enters
a loop on the opposite side from the end's crossing (which is
crossing over, S.Part entering from under).
The one S.Part bites down upon the opp. end (Left upon Right's),
the other S.Part bites upon the S.Part (Right upon  Left's).

These are simple diagrams:  if you botch these, ... ???
(But they are deceptive and misleading, in forcing this common
flat image where in some cases -- e.g., the Sheet Bend -- nothing
like it obtains on actual tying & loading.)

Quote
Although you have two entry points, you also have two orientations of wrap for each entry point -wrap to the right or wrap to the left.  Although the differences are trivial, there are four variants for each of the two possible starting loops (loop towards or loop behind) yielding a total of eight possible structures.

WOW, from two to two-to-the-third!  Yes, you have the mirror images
of the two possible knots -- 2 to the 2nd = 4.  We are talking about
sticking the tail through the in-S.Part-formed Constrictor tying method for
an eyeknot -- there is no "orientations of wrap" which I think has you drifting
into Ashley images or something.  Whatever your mistake, think clearly on
this:  you form the Constrictor in the S.Part (there are but two ways (mirror
images) to do this); you poke the tail through (there are but two directions).
Two Times Two Tends To Tally To Four.
QED.

--dl*
====

Andy

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 134
  • Five Knots a Day keeps Alzheimer's Away
    • My Selection of Most Useful Knots
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2009, 06:21:56 PM »

Okay, for the record, here are the two "psychedelic bowlines" I get from the constrictor / myrtle method:



Dan, which one is the Myrtle, and which one is the Anti-Bowline?
Until someone tells me the answer, the one on the left I call the "acid bowline", the one on the right the "cannabis bowline"... :)

Wow, they are really fun and fast to tie! Thank you Derek for introducing me to these knots.

The loops look really strong, but I haven't put them under a lot of strain, with repeated jerks etc. The real test will have to wait until the next time I go down a cliff. (Like, in the next life...)

Wishing you all a wonderful weekend,

Andy

p.s.: Oh, and for reference, I documented the myrtle hitch and the psychedelic bowlines on my site's "constrictor in the hand" page.

my selection of most useful knots

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2009, 09:43:41 PM »
Andy,

PLEASE DO NOT CLIMB ON EITHER OF THESE KNOTS

They are NOT strong and they are quite hard to set in climbing rope - especially new stuff.  If the knot opens slightly and you load one of the pairs hard, then the knot becomes a slip knot and you could be sliding to the end of this life a little faster than you might have hoped for.

The Myrtle is ideal for holding up a tree or a pole in a gale in nice jammy cord, but really dangerous in smooth springy climbing rope.

I understand that the rethreaded '8' is the only knot recommended for a life safety tie in (although it is not my choice), and having seen a bowline open in front of my very eyes on a climb, I would never use one, not even the fancy variants often muted as safe.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2009, 05:41:06 AM »
Dan, which one is the Myrtle, and which one is the Anti-Bowline?

The left one, if properly oriented/dressed, is an anti-bowline (my term);
you show it in odd (dis)array, instead of with the *bowline*-characterizing
(and here "bowline" in inclusive of "anti-") nipping loop of the S.Part.  The
right one is easier to see, it being in better form.

ORRRRrrr, just referring to your righthand image, loading the right end
makes an anti-bowline, loading the left end a bowline (Myrtle).

Quote
The loops look really strong, ...

Why?
For this anti-bowline, make a 2nd pass /wrap with the end, to bulk
up the loop, improve security.  This knot can look strong, by which
I mean "have a nice gentle curve in the S.Part" (or one of decreasing
radius).

Quote
I understand that the rethreaded '8' is the only knot recommended for a life safety tie in (although it is not my choice), and having seen a bowline open in front of my very eyes on a climb, I would never use one, not even the fancy variants often muted as safe.

Perhaps by some authorities this is so.  I have posted some secure bowlines
to this forum elsewhere.  I would have no qualms about relying on them.

--dl*
====

Andy

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 134
  • Five Knots a Day keeps Alzheimer's Away
    • My Selection of Most Useful Knots
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 03:35:29 PM »

Hi Derek, hi Dan,

Thank you very much for the clarification, expansion and admonitions... :)
Very glad to have connected with you, you are so knowledgeable.

Wishing you both a beautiful week,

Andy
my selection of most useful knots

MarkDash210

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Myrtle Hitch not in ABOK?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 03:19:33 AM »

Okay, for the record, here are the two "psychedelic bowlines" I get from the constrictor / myrtle method:



Dan, which one is the Myrtle, and which one is the Anti-Bowline?
Until someone tells me the answer, the one on the left I call the "acid bowline", the one on the right the "cannabis bowline"... :)

Wow, they are really fun and fast to tie! Thank you Derek for introducing me to these knots.

The loops look really strong, but I haven't put them under a lot of strain, with repeated jerks etc. The real test will have to wait until the next time I go down a cliff. (Like, in the next life...)

Wishing you all a wonderful weekend,

Andy

p.s.: Oh, and for reference, I documented the myrtle hitch and the psychedelic bowlines on my site's "constrictor in the hand" page.

Why isn't the Anti-Bowline just called a Sheet Bend Bowline? After following the picture you posted I end up with a sheet bend knot mid rope that forms a loop. Guess this may be the what came first the chicken or the egg of knots, What came first the sheet bend or the bowline...??