Author Topic: Just Plain Crazy  (Read 5195 times)

DerekSmith

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Just Plain Crazy
« on: October 21, 2007, 02:46:16 PM »
I had to check the date when Charles Hamel sent me this one, and no, it's not All Fools day - but it should be !!

Apparently back on 21st November 1986, one Hanson, Alden W. (Midland, MI, US) filed a patent for a knot.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4711476.html - and I defy anyone to interpret what is being described therein.

Perhaps he was just trying to bring to everyones attention how mind numbingly stupid (US) patent laws are - or maybe he was quite serious and it is the rest of the world who are stupid enough to let this insanity continue.

I can but quote Victor Meldrew -- "I DON'T BELIEVE IT, I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT"

What are we allowing to happen to our world?

SS369

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 03:07:01 PM »
Now that was absolutely incredible. What to do to amuse oneself. I think it is an elaborate phishing scheme to get th e-mail addresses of intelligent and maybe curious knottyers and to lasso them and lure them into lalaland.
Has anyone seen the diagrams of the proposed knot/bend/???
SS

DerekSmith

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2007, 03:43:18 PM »
I was recently reading an extract from the Scottish Mountaineering Club Journal Volume 5 Number 5, dated May 1899

The article was about the Middleman Knot (a knot that I happen to think is one of the worst knots around).  You can read the article for yourselves at http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/smcj/smcj029/smcj0290611.htm A Mr Bell tooks the opportunity of writing to  "help one to understand wherein its merits and deficiencies lie.".  One can only guess that knowledge of the Alpine Butterfly was not available at that time, for who would use the Middleman knot if they were aware of the Alpine?

One delightful passage in this article has reminded me that for all our knowledge advancement, we have lost much in the intervening years.

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If the knot is made with the slip side up, the ordinary work of the rope loosens the knot, and then if any extra strain comes on, it would be bad for the man. I have seen a man climbing with two knots 6 inches apart. If any place had come where he had to be hauled up, he would have got a bad nipping. He had the wrong end of the knot up.

"He would have got a bad nipping.  He had the wrong end of the knot up."

108 years ago and the climber would have been scorned for his mistake and getting the "bad nipping" he deserved, while today we cower away from researching and publishing knot strength results or teaching knot use for fear that the litigation police will  be allowed to ruin our lives for us.

We can stand on the moon, watch geysers on Titan, make carbon into nano tubes and read our own book of DNA, yet we have much of the world at war over the belief in various gods, big Pharma runs our health (AKA sickness) services,  Politics is full of lairs and our lives are controlled by hairdressers, Traffic wardens and fear of litigation.  Do you know that playing conkers in school has been banned for fear of someone getting hurt?

Do you realise how dangerous 2mm polyester braid is?  Children could hurt, even kill themselves with it, especially if they were to be taught how to tie knots with it.  But have no fear, our keepers - our guardians in government - will keep us all safe by banning all unsafe practices (like putting on a knecktie) and making sure that full Risk assessments and safety procedures are in place for any questionable activities.  Just continue giving them a free hand and a little more time.

Perhaps as a responsible organisation we should be proactive and remove all details of how to tie knots from our website and publications as an example to everyone of the dangers posed by using potentially deadly combinations of cord and knots.

Anyone for Valium and cottonwool or would you perhaps vote for a world of self responsibility and the risk of "a bad nipping".

I know where my vote goes.

Derek

paulj

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007, 06:59:59 PM »
Here's the US patent office source for this patent

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4711476.PN.&OS=PN/4711476&RS=PN/4711476

You may need a TIFF addon to view the figures.

The USPTO page has references both back and forward, so you can examine the history of patents involving knots.  Such a patent is not very useful in controlling the use of the knot by individuals, it could be used to control its use in manufactured items.  For example, 6,619,703 patent seems to be aimed at fishing net manufacturing. 6,616,198 has to do with the weaver knot in textile machines.

Keep in mind that the meat of a patent lies in its claims.  The figures help understanding the claims, but the patent stands or falls based on what is claimed.

A quick glance at these patents and references suggests that this is not a very active area of invention.

paulj

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 06:24:46 AM »
I had to check the date when Charles Hamel sent me this one, and no, it's not All Fools day - but it should be !!
But what if Nautile hadn't checked the date?   :o

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Apparently back on 21st November 1986, one Hanson, Alden W. (Midland, MI, US) filed a patent for a knot.

Yes, and this was featured in a KM some several years ago, by Budworth (IIRC)--and there is a bend & loop?
I wasn't so favorably impressed by the knot.  People seem to bring things up in ignorance of so much that
is already published, in ABOK, and better.

And as otherwise noted, there are actually several patents with knots in them--mostly re netting?
--I need more time exploring those.

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What are we allowing to happen to our world?

Apparently things of little or no consequence
(unlike the American electoral system and esp. the recent results).

 >:(
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 06:25:58 AM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 06:49:05 AM »
I was recently reading an extract from the Scottish Mountaineering Club Journal Volume 5 Number 5, dated May 1899
My, my:  bit behind on the periodicals reading, eh?  :D

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The article was about the Middleman Knot (a knot that I happen to think is one of the worst knots around).
Which I believe got some coverage here on this very aspect, and w/images from & reference thus to much
the same offset knot for joining ropes.

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One can only guess that knowledge of the Alpine Butterfly was not available at that time,
for who would use the Middleman knot if they were aware of the Alpine?

Or one can also refer to prior discussion of this, too--citations for the 1928 (20th, non 19th century)
Alpine Club Journal in which Wright & Maggowan presented the >>BUTTERFLY<<, as they named it.
Now, I'm not sure when the name "Lineman's Loop" came around to gracing this knot, or if it & knot
in linemen's hands preceded 1928.  People might continue to use a knot that they were familiar with
and which worked, irrespective of newer offerings--this can be seen presently, in reading rockclimbing
& arborist forums, e.g..

Quote
One delightful passage in this article has reminded me that for all our knowledge advancement, we have lost much in the intervening years.
Quote
If the knot is made with the slip side up, the ordinary work of the rope loosens the knot,
and then if any extra strain comes on, it would be bad for the man. I have seen a man climbing with two knots 6 inches apart.
If any place had come where he had to be hauled up, he would have got a bad nipping.

I'm not all so sure of that:  he might have taken some friction from rope movement, but the hemp ropes
of those days I presume were pretty frictive and with two Overhands to move, things might go differently
than the writer imagines.  Care to put to the test with some suitable material (most any well aged rope
I think will remove concern of its being overly slick)?
But as I noted previously, one more Overhand added at either end (and maybe between) of the initial
duo could lock the struture suitably.

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108 years ago and the climber would have been scorned for his mistake and getting the "bad nipping" he deserved,
while today we cower away from researching and publishing knot strength results or teaching knot use for fear that the litigation
police will  be allowed to ruin our lives for us.

I think you've fallen onto the soapbox!

Quote
Do you realise how dangerous 2mm polyester braid is?  ... especially if they were to be taught how to tie knots with it.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  I have considered some knots attractive but for some residing
risk of malfunction if not carefully/attentively tied, and in some cases, well, one goes with safety--there
are often other choices, afterall.  It's a balancing act, at times.

Quote
Perhaps as a responsible organisation we should be proactive and remove all details of how to tie knots from our website
and publications as an example to everyone of the dangers posed by using potentially deadly combinations of cord and knots.

Or point out and fix the mistakes.  (In one KM knots presentation, 4 of the 5 depicted knots were mistied!)

Quote
Anyone for Valium and cottonwool or would you perhaps vote for a world of self responsibility and the risk of "a bad nipping".

Hmmm, sounds like you might've had more than a nip, eh?! ;D

--dl*
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DerekSmith

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 05:21:13 PM »
Quote
My, my:  bit behind on the periodicals reading, eh?   ;D

Living on the edge of the Wash in King John's country, the mail coach can be a bit held up by tides and wet leaves, but they get here eventually.

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I think you've fallen onto the soapbox!

Hmmm, I took a bit of time getting there, but I think that was the point of the post ??

Derek

Gleipnir

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2009, 08:55:00 PM »

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Re: Just Plain Crazy
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 09:58:54 PM »
Thank you for that extra research, Gleipnir.  This was a conversation I hadn't seen before, and I had no idea that anyone could patent a knot.  Enforcing the patent would surely take some policiing?

Regards

Glenys
Lesley
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