Author Topic: Two situations and more graceful knots for them  (Read 787 times)

mcjtom

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Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« on: January 11, 2020, 01:27:25 PM »
Here are two situations that I solved, but I was hoping that there could be a more graceful solution for them.

1) Imagine a bucket full of water with a wire handle.  You're being thrown a small diameter rope from the roof and are supposed to tie the bucket to be hoisted there.  The problem is that the working end of the rope is way too long, you don't want to cut it, and whatever hitch or loop you tie to the bucket handle has to be done on a bight.  How would you do it?

2) There is a round horizontal spar of a few centimeters in diameter, close to the ceiling of a large tent, but reachable by hand.  You have a portable lamp with a hook (which is too small to be wrapped around the spar) that you want to frequentlly hang and remove from the spar.  You also have a short piece of small rope.  The idea is to make a small eyelet using the rope and attach this eylet firmly to the spar. (as a hint, I made a small butterfly loop in the middle of my piece of string and then used the ends to wrap them around the spar and tie them with something that is probably called a butcher knot.  Is there a better way?

Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 06:17:27 PM by mcjtom »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2020, 06:58:42 PM »
... You're being thrown a small diameter rope from the roof
and are supposed to tie the bucket to be hoisted there.

On this problem, one might be able to simply
coil the excess rope such that the coil (thinking
here of an oblong structure --compressed from
roundness) is folded under the thin wire,
and then the SPart casts 2-3 half-hitches around
the ends of the (thus doubled) coil.

As for your other problem,
there are (also ) many ways ... .  One would be to
tie a slipped constrictor knot to the spar and stopper
the slip-bight's tail (to render it your needed "eye"
to hook into).  This will be a stable-in-position
solution, whereas making a ring of (loose-ish)
rope to contain both spar & lantern hook could
move along the spar to various positions (making
a round turn on the spar in this case would give
some simple positioning stability when weighted).


--dl*
====

SS369

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2020, 07:51:11 PM »
Here are two situations that I solved, but I was hoping that there could be a more graceful solution for them.

1) Imagine a bucket full of water with a wire handle.  You're being thrown a small diameter rope from the roof and are supposed to tie the bucket to be hoisted there.  The problem is that the working end of the rope is way too long, you don't want to cut it, and whatever hitch or loop you tie to the bucket handle has to be done on a bight.  How would you do it?

2) There is a round horizontal spar of a few centimeters in diameter, close to the ceiling of a large tent, but reachable by hand.  You have a portable lamp with a hook (which is too small to be wrapped around the spar) that you want to frequentlly hang and remove from the spar.  You also have a short piece of small rope.  The idea is to make a small eyelet using the rope and attach this eylet firmly to the spar. (as a hint, I made a small butterfly loop in the middle of my piece of string and then used the ends to wrap them around the spar and tie them with something that is probably called a butcher knot.  Is there a better way?

Cheers!

Hi mctom.

For the first scenario: Why not just tie a midline hitch or loop using a bight? You could even stabilize the load while  it goes up and away from the building/obstacles using the lower end as a tether.

The second scenario: Tie a sling of chosen size around the spar and attach the small hook to it if the hook size is appropriate.

roo

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 10:49:02 PM »
Here are two situations that I solved, but I was hoping that there could be a more graceful solution for them.

1) Imagine a bucket full of water with a wire handle.  You're being thrown a small diameter rope from the roof and are supposed to tie the bucket to be hoisted there.  The problem is that the working end of the rope is way too long, you don't want to cut it, and whatever hitch or loop you tie to the bucket handle has to be done on a bight.  How would you do it?

2) There is a round horizontal spar of a few centimeters in diameter, close to the ceiling of a large tent, but reachable by hand.  You have a portable lamp with a hook (which is too small to be wrapped around the spar) that you want to frequentlly hang and remove from the spar.  You also have a short piece of small rope.  The idea is to make a small eyelet using the rope and attach this eylet firmly to the spar. (as a hint, I made a small butterfly loop in the middle of my piece of string and then used the ends to wrap them around the spar and tie them with something that is probably called a butcher knot.  Is there a better way?

Cheers!
There are no shortage of possible solutions.

For 1), a Timber Hitch on the Bight is quick:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html (second image)


For 2),  A Gnat Hitch on the spar and a bowline or other loop at the hook

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html

I also see nothing wrong with simply bending together the ends of the cord to make a large sling (ring) around the spar for the small hook to engage, which I believe SS369 may be suggesting as well.

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 10:49:53 PM by roo »
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Scorpion Regent

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 10:14:14 PM »
For the first situation a sheet bend could be tied using two bights of the same line such that the bucket handle was captured in the middle.  The slipped Buntline or the Timber hitch in a bight might be the better options, but I haven't used them yet, so I go with what I know.

For the second situation both ends of the rope are tied bended together with a Fisherman's bend then the resulting loop is hitched around the spar in a Prusik, or a Girth hitch if you don't have enough slack. 

mcjtom

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2020, 06:39:59 PM »
Many thanks for the balanced and sensible answers to my silly questions.  I have one more in a similar vein:

If I would like to hitch a rope to a spar, I could obviously do it in many ways, but why would I choose constructs like Sailor's Hitch et al. which, while elegant, rely mostly on friction between the rope and the spar and can be shaken loose more easily than hitches like Gnat or Slipped Buntline (High Post) or even good loops that depend more on rope-on-rope friction and rope pinching and seem ultimately more secure overall?

Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 08:36:29 PM by mcjtom »

SS369

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2020, 07:30:21 PM »
You're welcome.

To answer your last question: Most likely to save rope usage.
If shaking or loosening, coming undone is the challenge, then by all means choose something more secure.
Sometimes a multi-wrap (around the spar/object) hitch can be very secure.

SS

roo

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 08:31:39 PM »
Many thanks for the balanced and sensible answers to my silly questions.  I have one more in a similar vein:

If I would like to hitch a rope to a spar, I could obviously do it in many ways, but why would I choose constructs like Sailor's Hitch et al. which, while elegant, rely mostly on friction between the rope and the spar and can be shaken loose more easily than hitches like Gnat of Slipped Buntline (High Post) or even good loops that depend more on rope-on-rope friction and rope pinching and seem ultimately more secure overall?

Cheers!
The advantage of the Sailor's Hitch would be the high level of jam resistance.  It will also offer some lengthwise pull resistance, but you can also get that augmentation with more round turns used in combination with other hitches.

If absolute security is more important, the a Gnat Hitch would be more appropriate.
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Scorpion Regent

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2020, 11:02:23 PM »
Many thanks for the balanced and sensible answers to my silly questions.  I have one more in a similar vein:

If I would like to hitch a rope to a spar, I could obviously do it in many ways, but why would I choose constructs like Sailor's Hitch et al. which, while elegant, rely mostly on friction between the rope and the spar and can be shaken loose more easily than hitches like Gnat or Slipped Buntline (High Post) or even good loops that depend more on rope-on-rope friction and rope pinching and seem ultimately more secure overall?

Cheers!
The answer is how you attach a line depends what circumstances it will be expected to experience.  A boat fender line differs from a tow line, which in turn differs from a safety halyard all of these and plenty more circumstances might each warrant a different technique.  If all you want to do is hitch a line to a spar and nothing more, a round turn and a pair of half hitches will suffice.  If you give me some more information I can give you a better answer along with a reason.

mcjtom

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2020, 07:32:46 AM »
Thanks! The last question was not so much about an ideal knot for a specific situation, but rather my own frustration of trying to tinker too much.  While I'm fascinated with knots, the side effect is that instead of just tying a decent one that works and getting on with life, I keep analyzing all cons, pros, variants and the like...

Case in point: there are several versions of Trucker's hitch (and a lengthy and illuminating discussion about it on this board).  I have my picks.  Then last week I needed to tye a plastic water tank to a pickup truck for a short ride.  By the time I analysed the situation, identified risk factors, considered options, made my tentative shortlist, and started the mental selection process, the shop owner already tied it all up using a Quicky Truckie (they all tie it like this here in Asia) refused my attempts to help and off we went...

I kind of like roo's strategy of picking a few wide-spectrum knots (although everyone's lists differ) that work reasonably well, don't slip and don't jam easily, get to know their properties and limitations well and just keep going.


Scorpion Regent

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Re: Two situations and more graceful knots for them
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2020, 08:00:55 PM »
Thanks! The last question was not so much about an ideal knot for a specific situation, but rather my own frustration of trying to tinker too much.  While I'm fascinated with knots, the side effect is that instead of just tying a decent one that works and getting on with life, I keep analyzing all cons, pros, variants and the like...

Case in point: there are several versions of Trucker's hitch (and a lengthy and illuminating discussion about it on this board).  I have my picks.  Then last week I needed to tye a plastic water tank to a pickup truck for a short ride.  By the time I analysed the situation, identified risk factors, considered options, made my tentative shortlist, and started the mental selection process, the shop owner already tied it all up using a Quicky Truckie (they all tie it like this here in Asia) refused my attempts to help and off we went...

I kind of like roo's strategy of picking a few wide-spectrum knots (although everyone's lists differ) that work reasonably well, don't slip and don't jam easily, get to know their properties and limitations well and just keep going.

It sounds like you were too busy thinking to be working, I can relate, because I had that problem when I was younger.  You simply have to trust yourself to tie the right knot.  Roo is not wrong.  It is best to keep things relatively simple.  Life gets complicated all on its own.
I have my go to knots.  Every so often I switch things around.  For example I set aside the round turn and two half hitches and I use the back hand hitch until I decide to change again or the circumstance dictate I use something else.  I have a good tool box stored in muscle memory.  Tinker all you want, but when the clock is ticking "Just do it" and "Git' er' dun".  Cheers.