Author Topic: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!  (Read 12001 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« on: August 07, 2009, 06:06:41 PM »
Okay, I'm freshly returned from a family visit eastwards to The Shore (S. Jersey),
where I took some time to revisit some local CFK (Commercial Fishing Knotting) sites
and one marina.  At the marina, my (camera's) focus was on cleat hitches , mainly,
with some collateral items of interest.  Because of this focus, I've started this specific
thread, instead of putting this under Knots in the Wild , where it would be welcome.

Btw, I'm growing a sense of a loose correlation between cost of the boat and
"correctness" of the cleat hitch -- the fancy boats so far have tended to do it
correctly, neatly; the small craft have been, well, more imaginative .
(So far, I favor the "correct" securings.)

So, first up, let's see:

1) This cleat hitch manages to have the rope bear against itself rather than the
cleat, suggesting some pulling back on the S.Part by later tying of the hitch!?

2) It's better half comes in a different formation, and I'm sorry that I wasn't
really able to pick apart these structures but simply took a quick photo and
moved along (and eventually was asked what I was doing by I think a marina
staffer/manager); this one stands out in having the loaded line bear over a
bunch of cleat-wrapping, but I'm going to guess that it might have begun
as something more ordinary and then had a slack S.Part given itself a wrap
that put it into current on-top (vs. at bottom) position!?

3) And yet, for example (at photo time -- who knows, at tying time), there was
this "correct" attachment right across the floating dock -- within 2 metres!
(Its correctness and neatly coiled excess takes a bit of a hit from the clearly
ravelling end strand at the center -- tsk, tsk :  all the king's glory for a whipping?)

[edit-add, after realizing limit = 4]

4) Here is a "neat" hitch, following take S.Part under away ear , but then
immediately going into the "fig.8" wraps, which seems to have been given the
additional Half-hitch in the S.Part post-tying, as though to consume slack?
-- or was it desired for some reason, regardless ?!  (Otherwise one would have
to have reeved the tail between cleat & HH'd S.Part; we can be assured that that
wasn't done.)

---- post attachment limit ---

TBC

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 06:11:13 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 06:41:33 PM »
Yes, there's more.  (While there are only a couple of ways presented
as correct, there area a multitude of "imaginative" cleat hitches.)   :D

5) Not sure if the tyer was going for "warm & fuzzy", or trying to hide
the intricate confusion in the core, or ... !?  Here, too, though, it seems
that there was some late involvement of the S.Part, which looks to run
high in the stack of strands, and after hooking under the away ear, taking
a u-turn through a bight?!  -- again, I could/did not dissect these things.

6) And here is another mass of wrapping.  But, here, I think one discerns
that the end locking HH fed a tail-wrapping which pulled awkwardly on
the closing HH, pulling it back out of usual position.

These two help point to a question I have re the particular, S-shaped cleat:
there are two aspects of this asymmetric cleat -- taking the end to a curved
towards vs. curved away ear!?  I think that the curved-away aspect of #5
looks better (or seems intended to facilitate making a fig.8 wrap at that
point!?).  I'll guess that some cleat-designer thought that the shape would
help with the fig.8 wraps, but if so then they to impose a constraint on
the tying.

7) And this hitch has a longer sequence of wraps, I think -- beginning
correctly, with away-ear->near-ear->8->8-> ... , and then getting into
some awkward HH-securing.  (At first I thought that it might be more
regular, and then with some afterthought tying of the end.)  The loose
bight of rope on the right side, however, looks ugly and insecure.

8) This is another cleat hitch suggesting that the S.Part was further wrapped
(to consume slack?) after the initial structure was formed.  And this is too
bad, as the humped curves in the core sure do speak of, er, "imagination" !

 -------- TBC ----------

--dl*
====

capt larry

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 07:06:06 PM »
Dan,

You have hit on one of my pet peeves.  I'd like to think I have more than average boating experience and an interest in knot tying - the Capt is real, USCG Master Power and Aux. Sail.  For 10 years I was involved with a marina - large for my area, about 200 boats generally over 30'.  You found 1 out of 8 properly tied and that would bear out my experience.  The imaginatination and stupidity of boaters shows how little care and concern for an investment in the fifty to hundreds of thousands dollars never ceases to amaze me. When I teach classes that include tying to a cleat the mantra is the KISS (keep it simple stupid) and "more is not better".  The air was blue from our expressions of exasperation when, during a bad storm, we were on the docks trying to protect these boats and were met with the likes of your pictures.  It is a sad commentary that today that while you must pass a test to drive a car, you need only a check book to buy and operate a boat.  In my area, NY, the anomaly is that you need to take a "safe boating course" and get a certificate to operate a jet ski but nothing to operate a boat whether it be a dingy or 50' yacht.

Well, I'm done venting - your post struct a nerve.

CL

 

PatDucey

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 07:56:27 PM »
I was at a presentation when someone said they were going on a sailing trip, and they knew nothing about knots (or sailing), and he asked me what was the single most important knot to know on a boat.  I taught him the cleat hitch.

Since he wasn't going to be driving the boat, he would probably be involved with jumping on the dock when coming in to tie up.  A proper cleat hitch is not only to keep the boat tied up, but it also gives a measure of safety when getting ready to cast off or slacking off a taught line.  For the unskilled boater, I felt that this was the most important knot to learn.

This is also why I have a cleat on my knot training table.  Whether it is dock lines or the anchor line, it is the one knot that you tie and walk away from, leaving your investment floating there.  It's certainly one of my pet peeves also.

Pat

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2009, 08:07:35 PM »
I remain with the question:
How should one deal with shared cleats ??

Of couse, one might say that a well-designed marina precludes sharing,
but that wasn't the case I found (I think), and includes one other dock
where some pricey boats (and "proper" hitching) were moored.

And the question of the efficacy of the "proper" hitch in terms of various
rope/cleat-size ratios
also stands in need of answer, for if the goal is to
be able to release the hitch while under strain, then I'd think that one
will find cases were, alas, that simply isn't so possible -- that was the
caution given to me by an Intra-Coastal Waterway tour boat (pretty
large -- 2" lines?) captain when I asked about his particular hitches,
which IIRC began Fig.8 wrapping after the initial contact beneath
the away ear.

--dl*
====
ps:  kernal panic (!?) while doing post #3 -- TBC

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2009, 08:30:20 PM »
Third time's a charm?  (Well, the first two were pretty charming , eh?!  ::)  )

9) Great Mounds of Mooring!  I can detect an eye splice involved here (see the
single strand end at lower left edge), and two lines brought into the cleat.
First task upon release is :  Find The End(s)   -- looks challenging!
I started to remark at the Two+Twenty Half-hitches, but they'd have more
spacing, so I think we're looking at pure wraps, with a finishing HH or something,
lower right.  It consumes rope, and by golly looks to protect against chafing!
(Perhaps the owners are currently trying to sell the boat, as being the lesser
of two evils -- the other being undoing this hitching.   ;D  )

10) Here we see a bona fide knot involved in the hitching -- viz., a Clove Hitch
(aka "Two HHs").  The line comes to the center hole, turns up around it, and the
non-Fig.8 reaches to away ear, and makes a locking (in theory) HH to it, which
is pulled up as the end hitches to the S.Part.

11) Eights Away!  The thicker over the thinner seem to indulge Fig.8 wrapping,
but there's something else thrown in for the later/thicker line (at left)!?  And
the line is brought into the center hole (I think) -- where it's end ends up, too.

12) And here we confront an issue of the rope-/cleat-size ratio :  this is actually
both a larger cleat (this different dock anticipating heavier lines?!) and a smaller
rope (re the braided line).  My guess is that with the diminished R-s/C-s ratio,
there will be diminished holding, esp. of the locking HH.; there is more contact
per turn of metal, but at a gentler angle -- so I think that more tension will be
delivered to any given point than with a smaller cleat.  Maybe just a full round
(of the base) to start the structure would suffice; I muse about putting in a
round turn on an ear!?
I see the braided line as brought to the away ear (which I might note sits at
an odd approach given the cleat *sway*!), makes an initial fig.8 wrap, then
a non-8 turn, and a HH or turn around itself (rather *spacey* for that to nip).

------- TBC ----------

--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2009, 08:52:59 PM »
Okay, this should do it -- four square.

13) Under one (hard to be much "near/away" when perpendicular!) ear,
under other, then non-8 HH fighting effect of finishing non-8
locking HH.  This would be awkward at best to release under tension,
but probably resists jamming but stays tied better than most.

14) Fig.8s are Great, and who stole the end?!  And it seems to be with
an upwards loading -- just when there's a nice chafe guard (metal) on
the dock edge, too.

15) Here's a turn through the center & around near ear, Fig.8ing over to
the away ear, and non-8ing with locking HH.

16) And from that proper-cleated dock of pricier boats comes this:
brought to away ear, but then immediate Fig.8, with one extra course
put in, and left well loose (no gales imminent).

--dl*
====

DerekSmith

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2009, 09:23:20 AM »
Welcome to imageville Dan.

The D40 is an excellent camera and those are great shots.  What software are you using to reduced the files sizes ?  it has done a good job without any of the typical jpeg halo effect.

I feel that this record demonstrates that even in an field where people might be expected to understand rope and knot functionality, today, even that group are now divorced from such understanding, showing no comprehension beyond the 'man on the street'.

In my childhood, every kid in the village knew a handfull of knots, but more importantly, they knew when and why you should use them - EVERYONE knew their knots, just as every boy had a penknife.

This little catalogue tends to suggest that in just a couple of generations we can now presume that virtually NO-ONE knows how to tie and use knots and cord.

The embers grow ever dimmer - alternatively, one might think that the opportunity is even greater ??

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 05:10:28 PM »
The D40 is an excellent camera and those are great shots
There are those who would disparage its ("mere") 6.1mp resolution.  I've been
buoyed by some praise given the mere-er 4.1mp D2Hs, AND liked the simple
response in a forum to one questioner of the D40 by Brit architect Ian Bramham:
"Here's what it can do" -- to which he presents some lovely, lovely shots.
http://ianbramham.aminus3.com/  (Noting that this is well Off-Topic!)

The D40 suits for knots in that I can set it quickly to lowest file-size/resolution,
Nikon's "JPEG-BASIC + SMALL" (Basic/Normal/Fine + Small/Medium/Large: NINE combos,
where B+L = M+N = F+S = 0.8mb, roughly).  A quick check on a few of the
cleat-hitch pics shows the captured file size = 0.3mb.

I should add:  optional kit (I suppose "package" is apt) lens 55-200 VR here;
no PP (post-processing -- an entire world of options).

Quote
What software are you using to reduced the files sizes ?  it has done a good job without any of the typical jpeg halo effect.
Apple OS X 5.6 Leopard's iPhoto offers similar JPEG-quality & file-size options,
and my suffix denotes my choice ("MM") of : Low/Med/High/Max + Small/Med/Large/Full .
(But I couldn't quote pixel dimensions for these.)  -- AND "custom" in size, which IIRC from
one use takes BOTH dimensions in pixel count, rather than one and then auto-calculating
the other by aspect ratio !?  -- don't know if this implies ability to distort a dimension or
some kind of truncation.

.:.  So, in these cleat-hitch images you have the baby Nikon shooting its lowest
setting in resolution+size and that reduced to (mostly) Medium/Medium to keep
things <100kb (depends on image -- some can go MLarge).

I'll attach a night scene -- much solid color and so little need for file size --
rendered in Panasonic LX3 16:9 aspect full size (~10mp) and in LowLarge & MM.
(Often "low" does show its lowliness, alas.)

----------------------------------
In any case, as remarked in my Towards a Science of Knots , building the record
of knotting usage is something increasingly easy to do this modern 21st century day,
with even just your cell phone, or pocket camera ("The Best Camera" is the one you have
with you!).  And I'm aiming this point directly at a couple of IGKT events on the near
calendar -- Seattle & New Bedford.  Seek and ye shall find.  Photograph & share!
(And not from within the church (our own doings) or just a museum (NewBedford),
but also from the active world.)
----------------------------------

Quote
I feel that this record demonstrates that even in an field where people might be expected to understand rope and knot functionality,
 today, even that group are now divorced from such understanding, showing no comprehension beyond the 'man on the street'.
And where there seems to be ample instruction offered for just such knots
-- clove hitch, cleat hitch, bowline, squaREef knot, sheet bend, fig.8 stopper. !?

Quote
In my childhood, every kid in the village knew a handfull of knots, but more importantly, they knew
 when and why you should use them - EVERYONE knew their knots, just as every boy had a penknife.
One might suggest that this knowledge --such as it was-- was aided by a smaller
domain of cordage in which the known knot-schemas were supposed to work. !?

Quote
This little catalogue tends to suggest that in just a couple of generations we can now presume
 that virtually NO-ONE knows how to tie and use knots and cord.
The embers grow ever dimmer - alternatively, one might think that the opportunity is even greater ??
One might think we're near enough to the nadir of knot knowledge,
and that thus opportunity is great, esp. with the Net.

--dl*
====

attch'd :  diff. sized (MM & LL) Panasonic Lumix LX3 pics of Lobster House docks at night w/trawlers.
adding :  hand-held, f/2.0 (wide open), 5.1mm=24mm@35mmEquiv (also "wide" open),
ISO 400 (my set limit), 1/4 sec.  (But a 2nd shot, in 4:3 aspect focusing on reflection
and righthand clump of boats, was less sharp, alas.)
(LX3 has a neat "Dynamic B&W" "film mode", among many.)

Oh, and for the heck of it, another use for minimal photo-image size:  camera qua
photocopier -- here, of a ca. 1935 photo of "pound boats"(? maybe) featuring one
loosely set Round Turn & Two Half-hitches and an unfigured structure with tight
two turns (bottom right, on dock), AND marvelous thick wicker baskets!  (Today's
ComFishers use something I liken to laundry baskets -- also used by farmers --,
and as you'd guess far sturdier (and costlier), among other containers.
[D40 w/18-55 II kit lens, which I just realized gets the biggest close-up (55-200 is
next, then 18-70 -- old D70 kit ; LX3 though does super close-up (1cm) @5.1mm]


« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 05:28:02 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2009, 06:33:57 PM »
... we can now presume that virtually NO-ONE knows how to tie and use knots and cord.
And (back) on this very topic, I recall the 2003-November issue of Chesapeake Bay mag.,
presenting an article about "Hitches & Bends (and other uses of Twisted Fiber)", by an
author unfamiliar to me but who had written some odd how-to things, viz., Jan Adkins.
He began with the sort of light-hearted, gratuitous fluff supposed to entertain, and got
to musing about sailors' marriages going on the rocks because their mates haven't
  "learned to cleat a line after three years.  I insist that this is indeed
   grounds for divorce ... .   Hell, it should be grounds for flogging."

Prominently displayed in large images of the cover page for the article, he shows his lack
of exactly such skill, botching the very first step in tying a cleat hitch -- which should
be taking the line to the away ear first (his image brings it to the near ear)!!
(The article gets worse, but no more basic.  Re the nipping loop of the Bowline:
"(A loop like this is called a timber hitch, but that won't be on the test.)"
 --good thing for him if it's not.  But he still merits a flogging.)
And apparently the editors of this bay-related mag. don't know a cleat hitch
(or rubbish) when they see it (or not), either.  It is now a printed *fact* for others
to try to replicate, until ... .   (I recall Geoffrey being fond of quoting some editor
who's maxim was to Get it done vs. get it right ; I lack much sympathy for that
attitude:  a book/article is "done" once, but referred to (one should hope) many times.
Get It Right (for posterity, and its ripplEffects)!  Flog the offenders, that'll learn 'em!!  >:(

But business/marketing minds rule the world.   :-[

--dl*
====

postscript:  I have raised this issue of cleating -- citing this URLink/thread -- to Brion Toss's
SparTalk forum, URLink http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/showthread.php?p=4712#post4712

« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 07:49:06 PM by Dan_Lehman »

DerekSmith

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 11:37:09 AM »


Stunning image Dan,

Not only a good camera, but you also have the eye for a good composition.

Derek

stebold

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2010, 07:24:36 PM »
Pics of how a 180-foot cruise ship moored to cleats in the Puget Sound.
There was also a cool eye splice.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Cleat Hitches -- Noodle vs. Neat Knots!
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 06:56:32 AM »
Ah, thanks for the pics of further abominations.  (The 3rd, at least,
shows two ends so presumably two lines secured to one cleat.)

Offhand, the line looks a bit small for the cleat and for such a boat?!

--dl*
====