Author Topic: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot  (Read 18918 times)

BambooFenceKnot

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Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« on: June 29, 2009, 03:08:55 AM »
I'm fairly new to Knotting and Ropework, having just developed a fascination for the pursuit a year and a half ago while learning Tree Climbing. I live in Japan and had the opportuinty to learn the knot used to make Japanese fences.
http://takefanclub.livedoor.biz/archives/50467744.html  (Japanese text with a lot of pictures)
http://www.botanysaurus.com/jg/oto_komusu.html       (video of the knot formed on crossing bamboo poles)

I started practicing by making it in my hand as a loop, it seems strong and reminded my of the Eskimo Bowline (Geoffrey Budworth's Everday Knots p. 78) for some reason. I started searching through ABOK hoping to find the knot. I was disappointed to read his negative judgement  of it as the "worst Single Carrick Bend' but maybe it's particularly suite to it's role in Bamboo Fences rather than hawsers and cables used to haul boats.
 
  I wasn't able to see the pictures but DaveRoot spotting ABOK 1445 'in the wild' attaching a supporting stake to a young tree seems appropriate given the knots use in Japan.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=357.0;wap2

  Here's a Japanese site with photographsy illustrating the movements. http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~kabukato/page/snawa.html

  Knots seeem to be more than just the relationship betweend the standing and working end, the loops and bights, After learning the Japanese Fence Knot 'Otoko(Man) Musubi' or 'Kakine(fence) Musubi(knot)' I'm struck by cultural aspct of knots, You can see the hand movements with the online Japanese videos
 http://video.fc2.com/content.php?kobj_up_id=20080204v4saV2hn

  As this knot is very common in Japan there are a lot of YouTube and other educational videos. This video shows an old man is trying to learn it.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4dcAebx4Uo&hl=ja
and this video shows the hand movements up close
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ULryycpF0

  This knot is also called the 'Ibo Musubi', it's the name used here as the knot is shown in big rope. The two ends coming out of the knot can resemble horns so 'Tsuno Musubi' is yet another name. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVY3PLrNNDU

  Watching the way landscaping people keep the wraps tight and rotate their hands around to make this knot makes while keeping the bamboo posts snug makes you think of knots as culture. I wonder who tied the seedling to DaveRoot's young tree?
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=357.0;wap2

  I also wonder how the Eskimo Bowline described in Geoffrey Budeworth's Everyday Knots (p. 78) was tied to make the sleds. There's probably a way to keep the wraps taught while completing the konts.

   There's an easy way to adapt the Japanese Fence knot technique to make a loop in the hand too. I have no idea how secure it is but it looks and feels as strong as the Eskimo Bowline that Geoffrey Budworth says is 'more secure' than the regular bowline. I'll try to put up some pictures if anyone's interested.

Znex

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 04:23:37 AM »
Thank you for sharing. I think I will need to look at this tying method more closely.

By the way, you should be able to see Dave Root's original post with pictures here...
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=357.0


Dan_Lehman

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 05:01:49 AM »
I'm fairly new to Knotting and Ropework, having just developed a fascination for the pursuit
a year and a half ago while learning Tree Climbing.
Welcome to the IGKT forum!
 :)

Quote
I live in Japan and had the opportuinty to learn the knot used to make Japanese fences.
And probably a good few other knots that are uncommon in points west;
do look around and see what you can find, out "in the wild" of the Far East.
On some glancing through some Japanese knots books I got the impression
that there are more tying-up & binding knots in use over there than in the West.

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... it seems strong...
Because ... ?

Quote
I was disappointed to read his negative judgement  of it as the "worst Single Carrick Bend'
but maybe it's particularly suited to it's role in Bamboo Fences rather than hawsers and cables used to haul boats.
Consider the actual loading, geometries of the two knots -- they are distinct:
this fence knot joins ends that have come up from beneath the crossing of
a Clove Hitch, and the knot bears down upon this crossing part; the loaded
ends (S.Parts) are rather parallel here; whereas in a bend they are loaded
in opposite directions.
 
Quote
... but DaveRoot spotting ABOK 1445 'in the wild' attaching a supporting stake
 to a young tree seems appropriate given the knots use in Japan.
This is beyond the pale mysticism:  Dave found an eyeknot, not a bend; the tree
was immaterial -- could've been anything (or nothing, one might hope:  i.e., that the
knot would be secure when untensioned, also).

Quote
As this knot is very common in Japan there are a lot of YouTube and other educational videos.
Thanks for the links.  (I'll wait to be at a broadband connection to view.)
Beware that much YouTube knotting is mere echoing of nonsense found
elsewhere (because someone wants to make a video, to sound knowledgeable?).

Quote
Watching the way landscaping people keep the wraps tight and rotate their hands around
 to make this knot makes while keeping the bamboo posts snug makes you think of knots as culture.
"Practice makes perfect."  But in the step-wise tying URLink you gave, one can see that
the Clove Hitch should go a long way to helping with making a tight binding
-- it's probably the tightest binder that can be tied (whether it can hold that
tightness is aonther question).

Quote
I wonder who tied the seedling to DaveRoot's young tree?
Quite possibly someone who'd only learned 3/4s of how to tie a Bowline!
 :D

Quote
I also wonder how the Eskimo Bowline described in Geoffrey Budeworth's Everyday Knots (p. 78)
was tied to make the sleds. There's probably a way to keep the wraps taught while completing the knots.
That, too, is an eyeknot, and not one tied under tension, I'd imagine.  But, it's conceivable that one could
form the S.Part's Crossing-knot form and with the end put in place, haul hard on that
while pushing the knot eyewards to draw down & tighten the eye, then pull the tail snug
(which an ample excess resulting from the tightening).  But has anyone said that this knot
was so applied?

--dl*
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BambooFenceKnot

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 07:25:40 AM »
Thanks for the link Znex. I was just guessing about the knot from the text and reference to Ashley 1445.

Thanks for the reply and feedback Dan_Lehman. Sorry for the 'mysticism' in my post, I'm new to the field and thought I might have noticed something that would be hepful.  I'm not even sure that ABOK 1445 is the same as the Bamboo Fence Knot.

Quote
Quote
... it seems strong...
Because ... ?
Sorry for the mysticism, I made a loops with this 'Japanese Fence Knot'(possibly the "worst Single Carrick Bend" ABOK 1445) in 4mm polypropylene (spelling? I'm transliterating from the Japanese alphabet) and yanked on the loop a few times. It looked like all the parts grabbed each other in a way that was as stable as the Eskimo Bowline.

Here's detailed diagrams for making the bamboo fence knot, including the wrapes
http://homepage3.nifty.com/fuj-takeya/nawagake.htm#ibomusubi

Quote
Quote
Watching the way landscaping people keep the wraps tight and rotate their hands around
 to make this knot while keeping the bamboo posts snug makes you think of knots as culture.
"Practice makes perfect."  But in the step-wise tying URLink you gave, one can see that
the Clove Hitch should go a long way to helping with making a tight binding
-- it's probably the tightest binder that can be tied (whether it can hold that
tightness is aonther question).

This knot is made with a palm rope on bamboo fences outside. It has to hold for a few years. My uneducated impression is that, although requiring more practice to excute under tension it will hold longer than the clove hitch, contrictor or transom knot. I had just assumed it was a strong knot and that was why it's used in these traditional fences. But the fences don't bear loads (from what I've seen so far) so the knot may have survived for decorative reasons. It seems like an interesting knotting mystery.

Quote
Quote
I also wonder how the Eskimo Bowline described in Geoffrey Budeworth's Everyday Knots (p. 78)
was tied to make the sleds. There's probably a way to keep the wraps taught while completing the knots.
That, too, is an eyeknot, and not one tied under tension, I'd imagine.  But, it's conceivable that one could
form the S.Part's Crossing-knot form and with the end put in place, haul hard on that
while pushing the knot eyewards to draw down & tighten the eye, then pull the tail snug
(which an ample excess resulting from the tightening).  But has anyone said that this knot
was so applied?

The only information I've seen on the Eskimo Bowline is from Everyday Knots and the short Wikipedia entry. I just used wild conjencture to ask the question. I've never seen anyone tie this Japanese Fence knot as a loop. I was practicing the knot with an older construction worker in a parking lot the other day with the loop in my hand but, he took the string and put it up against a pole to tie it. His wraps remained nice and snug.

DaveRoot mentioned that his knot survived Hurricane Rita.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=357.0

I've only ever seen the Japanese Fence Knot snug up against fence posts though....
http://homepage3.nifty.com/fuj-takeya/yotumegaki.htm

Thanks for the quick feedback. I hope the links and speculation contribute to the forum in some way (in spite of the 'mysticism')
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 10:07:48 PM by BambooFenceKnot »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 06:47:37 PM »
[BambooFenceKnot, you need to edit your reply to me to change '[quote>' to '[≈quote≈]'
(the now-useless closing '[/quote]' in in place awaiting its precursor :o)  .   (Get used to
Preview:  heck, I've found my entire msg. wrongly put in italics or quoted after I fumbled
some editing term ! )  Above, the '≈' must be absent; it'st here to avoid effect in THIS
comment (and got by some fumbling of keys I can't reproduce!)   thanks ]


Quote
This knot is made with a palm rope on bamboo fences outside. It has to hold for a few years.
 My uneducated impression is that, although requiring more practice to excute under tension,
 it will hold longer than the clove hitch, contrictor, or transom knot.
 I had just assumed it was a strong knot and that was why it's used in these traditional fences.

Firstly, please distinguish (elsewhere) between the fence-knot which is a sort of , hmmm, binder
component, and the eyeknot -- to my mind, at the very least, knots are distinguished by loading
profile (though it poses philosophical issues in cases such as mid-line eyeknots (Butterfly) where
loading can be varied).  The fence knot, as noted previously, although joining two ends, doesn't
really fit the pure definition of a bend -- well, the entire knot which binds the fence is a
binder; the component that locks off the ends is ... just a part (we can leave it at that).

Yes, it should hold longer than a Clove hitch, which it has after all as its base; it is a way to
secure the Clove hitch.  It might also surpass the Constrictor, as there is nothing for that
binder to do but continuously resist a pull to loosen its ends -- straight pulling back out,
unlike the around-another-part pulling to unlock this fence-knot's tie-off component.

I should remark that there is another, like knot which ties off a Clove Hitch, and it popped up
in the knotting literature as a somewhat humorously astray guess at "Tom Bowling's" verbal
description of what we believe was intended -- viz. the Constrictor knot.  This knot simply
ties off the ends in what appears to be a Reef knot form bearing against the Clove's cross
part -- very nice, neat, secure.  But it will see the ends oriented at roughly in a tangent to
the knotted point rather than going away at roughly right angle to the tangent as w/your find.
The nice thing about both of these Clove securings is that they are largely independent
of contact with the object -- which thus could be some collection of small cylindrical
objects having much *space* at the binding surface, which spells trouble for knots
like the Strangle & Constrictor & Clove (so, a problem in making the tied-off Clove
would be at the interim step, keeping the Clove tight until one can secure it).

There are cleverer ways of tying off things like this, in which the act of tightening
also entails locking, and a locking got by cordage independent of the bound
object -- e.g., using a Rolling Hitch noose (a crude but simple example).  I'm now
fiddling a Clove variation in which the finishing end runs through a Bowlinesque
turn/half-hitch of the crossbar part sufficient to nip & hold the increasing tension
hauled into this end; and then one ties off the other tend.  (This binder does have
some dependency for friction from the object.)

Cheers,
--dl*
====

BambooFenceKnot

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 03:07:47 AM »
Dan_Lehman
Quote
[BambooFenceKnot, you need to edit your reply to me to change '[quote>' to '[≈quote≈]'
(the now-useless closing '[?/quote]' in in place awaiting its precursor Shocked)  .  

Sorry about that  :-[ - my html tag habits overcame my fingers while getting used to this boards Wiki tags.

Quote
Firstly, please distinguish (elsewhere) between the fence-knot which is a sort of , hmmm, binder
component, and the eyeknot -- to my mind, at the very least, knots are distinguished by loading
profile (though it poses philosophical issues in cases such as mid-line eyeknots (Butterfly) where
loading can be varied).  The fence knot, as noted previously, although joining two ends, doesn't
really fit the pure definition of a bend -- well, the entire knot which binds the fence is a
binder; the component that locks off the ends is ... just a part (we can leave it at that).

Thanks for the feedbak, I'm still working out how to view the knot and all the responses are helping. The problem I set out for myself was finding the 'eye knot' or 'bend' part of the knot in Ashley to see if this Japanese knot had an English Name. Would it be accurate to say that the eyeknot part is Ashley 1445?  I imagine the binding and everything involved in it must be covered in Bamboo Fence Book s (English) but I haven't had a chance to look through and English one yet. Here's the instructions (alternating rows of front view and back view can be confusing at first) [Sorry but I'm having trouble inserting i



I took some pictures of all the palm and jute fiber rope and the local Home Center stores thinking people might be interested. The palm ropeThe Palm Rope at the local home center comes with instructions for the Japanese fence knot. (Ibo Musubi, Otoko Musubi, Kakine Musubi, ..)



Being new to the board I don't know the path to the img attachements I'm trying to upload. if I upload  a jpeg, PalmFibeInstructions.jpg what should the url between the ?[img?] ?[?/img?] tags be? I went to the Simple Machines site and browsed the FAQs but still couldn't figure it out, sorry. :-[






« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:49:13 AM by BambooFenceKnot »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 06:07:23 AM »
Holy Microscope, BatMan!

But I see in the tiny book images that THAT knot is NOT the same as was shown
in clear images with black & white cords (arranged on fake bamboo with cut-out
notches to keep wraps spaced as though around another bamboo piece), which
was a Clove hitch base; in the book images, the tie-off comes with no help of
temporary holding by a Clove crossing part -- it is tied off OVER what would be
this part, never tucked beneath it, which is a tougher feat to pull off w/tension!?

--dl*
====

BambooFenceKnot

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 04:59:34 AM »
This series of images shows that the whole biniding doesn't involve a cloves hitch. The 'eyeknot' part, which I suspect is a lot like the ABOK 1445 single carrick bend is independent of the wrappings. This 'eye knot'  part of the knot has it's own name "Otoko Musubi"(man knot)(or "Gakine Musubi" (Fence Knot) or "Ibo Musubi"(wart knot) or "Tuno Musubi"(Horn Knot)..) The "Otoko Musubi" is used to finish off a variety of wrapping. The wrapping method names are interesting, looking at the pattern on the back where the rope crosses (or doesn't) can look like the kanji character for ten (or 2). This method is called the "Ura Juji Aya"(Back-side character-for-10 weave). If the post is right up against something (like a wall or tree) preventing the cord from being crossed, the view from the back looks like the kanji for two stood up on it's side. This 'weave' is called the "Ura Ni no Ji"(Back-side character-for-two).

I'll upload some bigger pictures. I just noticed the Eskimo bowline and the Single Carrick Bend being derisively dismissed as 'eye knots' but they seem strong and economical (not to waste much rope) to me. They may have evolved over hundreds of years to be the most efficient for the materials and task at hand.

 The old construction worker, that gave me an impromptu lesson in a parking lot, explained how to set up the knot so you didn't waste any rope. That night, I brought up the subject of palm rope and this 'Otoko Musubi' at a forest guide meeting and an older guy drew a picture of the tree and explained how the made fly swatters out of the it also. Another participant showed me how to press and roll the fibers together to make rope. He took my 3mm and 4mm cords and made a professional-looking 7mm (I would guess) cord. He said his grandfather had taught him how to do it. For me, this all really drove home knots as culture. I started to wonder if you could map knots and their variations along with migration the way it's done for languages and genes.

 The 'Otoko Musubi' is the base for some decorative knobs done in the palm cord for the tops of fences too. If the 'eye knot' that Dave_Root saw survived hurricane Rita maybe it was an experienced landscape guy over on working holiday from Japan. Who knows?  I'll upload some pictures of trees gaining support from this knot 'in the wild' or 'out in the field' in my next post.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:59:31 AM by BambooFenceKnot »

BambooFenceKnot

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Japanese Fence Knot supporting a tree
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 06:43:43 AM »
I found some trees supported by palm rope tied in the Otoko Musubi 'in the wild' or out in the field. It's widespread use in Japan is what led me to think the knot that Dave Root found might be this same 'worst Single Carick Bend.' Even before I saw the pictures, just people thinking that it might be the ABOK 1445 (the key words that led me to Dave Roots Post and this site) and the fact that it was supporting a tree made me suspect that Dave Root had found an 'Otoko Musubi' sight unseen. But then Znex was kind enough to provide the link with the pictures intact, and it does look a lot like the Otoko Musubi.

Quote
By the way, you should be able to see Dave Root's original post with pictures here...
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=357.0

It doesn't look like anyone finally settled on a name for the knot. If that knot is the same as this Otoko Musubi knot, I'm like  DerekSmith and Jimbo - I really like this knot. If you "take the time to heave all the parts down nice & tight" the 3D symmetry is beautiful. The knot already has at least 4 names in Japanese. I wonder if other countries in Asia use it. Taking cue from the naming of the 'Eskimo Bowline' and Dan Lehmans judgement..

Quote
Yes, there are a great many bogus "bowline" names; but, here, we have grounds IMHO
for using it:  the loopknot has a binding/nipping loop--what I regard as the Bowline's
essence, it's determining characteristic (as such a simple knot, what else is there?!).

...how about the Japanese bowline. But that might be misleading because it doesn't seem to be used to make loops here. The few times I've looked at boats here they've been tied with regular bowlines. I'll have to ask a older man that makes a living on his boat getting baby sardines. (boiled and dried for ChirimenJako) I'm guessing that 'Bamboo Fence Knot' would be the most descriptibe, but as this posts photos show, Landscapers use the knot in other situations too. It makes you think of Ashley page 44.

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It is characteristic of the workmen that what the carpenter fashions of wood and nails the tinsmith makes of tin, teh blacksmith of strap iron and the pipesetter of pipe, the sailor gets his result with rope and spars.

However, I've never seen the 'Otoko Musubi' used liek a bowline (other than the loops I've been tying the last few days).  The knot is always tied up against a pole like in these pictures. As a side note,  The matting protecting the tree from chafing with the taut cords is Jute (Asa or Hemp) yarn in the one case, and the same windmill palm as the rope in the other case.(I think)

I just realized there are more step-by-step instructions for the decorative flourishes added after securing the wraps with the 'Otoko Musubi.' The link is an anchor in the same page I posted previously for those that might be interested in tying the knot. I don't know if palm rope is readily available outside Japan, though at least half the products at the local home center were made in China.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 09:21:18 PM »
Ah, those are nicely larger images, yet still well under the 100kb limit!

Haven't seen all, but there is at least some confusion about Clove/non-clove
in the presented literature.

I do wish you'd stop treating the eyeknot and the binder/bend as though they
are interchangeably the same -- that somehow an eyeknot found in the States
might have a binder-knot origin from the Far East.  I surmised above and stay
with my betting guess that the eyeknot was simply a mis-formed Bowline effort
(or a home-brew variant formed as intended with or without knowledge of Bwl).
The eyeknot sees one of the bends unloaded ends given 50% tension, and
one of the fully loaded ends reduced to 50% -- quite a difference.

Also, I'll be curious to see if any newfangled, not-traditional cordage is employed
in binding fences, and whether you find this knot able to do its job with that.
(Quite good that you got to talk to an old fellow and learn some of his long
experience with the knot!)

I have posted here (year ago?) an image of the same knot tied in heavy trawler
mooring line, and have found some bit of variety of eyeknots there, including
an almost seemingly desired-to-be capsized Bowline version.

While I found the #1445 to hold in moderately loaded 3/8" soft-laid nylon rope
(made a loop of this w/knot, loaded loop w/5:1 pulley and maybe 300# total
force?), it's not a knot I'd trust in most things, either to not hold or to not come
untied easily -- very nearly a Granny, but asymmetric.  As for the eyeknot, that
too has better alternatives, but I could see it used where some slack-security
better than Bowline offers is wanted; but I would prefer the similar knot where
the entry of the end into the S.Part's loop comes from the opposite direction,
and is what I call an "anti-bowline" thus.  (If not some secured Bwl. instead.)

--dl*
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BambooFenceKnot

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 01:25:39 AM »
Here's some more pictures from the field, low bamboo fences instead of the sapling support pictures above. I'll have to ask a landscaping teacher how long the bamboo fences last. I sat(stood) in on a class last year and asked a teacher about the wired-together support beams. He said they stay for about 3 years. After all the work on the bamboo fence I hope they last at least three years. But then it's all recyclable, renewable back-to-the earth materials; bamboo, wood and palm rope.

 You can see how much practice-to-the-point-of-perfection you would get while making the fences.

Quote
Quote
Me
Watching the way landscaping people keep the wraps tight and rotate their hands around
 to make this knot makes while keeping the bamboo posts snug makes you think of knots as culture.
Dan Lehman
"Practice makes perfect."  But in the step-wise tying URLink you gave, one can see that
the Clove Hitch should go a long way to helping with making a tight binding
-- it's probably the tightest binder that can be tied (whether it can hold that
tightness is aonther question).

Quote
Dan Lehman
Also, I'll be curious to see if any newfangled, not-traditional cordage is employed
in binding fences, and whether you find this knot able to do its job with that.
(Quite good that you got to talk to an old fellow and learn some of his long
experience with the knot!)

I'll ask around about the newer cordage when I get the chance. I suspect the wraps and knot are only used with these traditional ropes, but... you never know. I've found a lot of people like to exchange their knots, it's fun to keep some rope (palm rope or 4mm polypropelyne)  in the pocket for these kind of impromptu exchanges. An older lady was just showing me some kind of sheet bend she uses while knitting. But back to this fence knot, the knot (probably 1445) didn't make sense to the construction worker unless it was formed up against a pole. The experience gave me the impression that the landscaping guys wouldn't think to make bowline-like loops. However the eye-knot part of the binding has it's own name. The method of wrapping the rope around the poles is changed to fit the demands of the task at hand...

 This particular fence wasn't very demanding so all the knots have the same back-side cross pattern to the wrap as pictured at this site's "nawagake05" image.

BambooFenceKnot

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Re: Abok 1445 as Japanese Fence Knot
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 03:30:50 AM »
I ran into a 56 year old man that used to work as a landscaper. He said this knot, the 'otoko musubi' was also used the close big burlap bags of sweet potatos. The knot was cut when the bags arrived at the shochu (distilled spirit) factory.