Author Topic: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.  (Read 8057 times)

rsilvers

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Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« on: June 23, 2009, 05:36:21 AM »
Here are the knots I decided to try to remember for fishing/boating use:

1. Palomar - attaching fish hooks, etc. Easy to do and highest strength. Good for braided superlines where other knots are not.
2. Blood Knot - best knot for splicing two lines of same thickness. Also you can clip the ends close. Does not need access to entire line.
3. Albright Knot - for splicing when lines are differing sizes. What about double surgeons knot? If it is almost as strong as the Blood Knot, maybe use it all the time?
http://www.marlinnut.com/knots/albright.shtml improved version -- any downside?
4. Arbor Knot - for attaching line to a reel.
5. Figure-Eight loop. Strongest loop but can jam under high stress. Also Surgeons (double) loop is ok but no reason to use it over the figure-eight. However, if you need to wrap around an object first, then use a double bowline. If you can make the loop in advance, the Bowline has no reason to exist except perhaps easier to adjust the loop.
6. Alpine butterfly -- for putting a loop mid-line.
7. Cleat Hitch - to make a boat fast.
8. Double-overhand stopper knot - best stopper knot. Figure-8 is ok if you want to be easy to undo.

Notes: I read Bowline needs to be a double to be almost as strong as a figure-eight, but it still needs a stopper knot to be really secure. Also Bowline does not like to be loaded on the loop or it may untie. So I will not use it unless I need to easily wrap around an object.
http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/safety_2.htm#bowline

Questions:
For fishing line of unequal thickness, what joiner? Albright vs Double Surgeons for unequal lines.
http://www.stripersurf.com/knot_leaders.html
They claim Surgeons is better, but I don't think I saw that claims by others.

Also, when someone says "Surgeons" for a basic knot or loop can I assume they basically always mean Double Surgeons?

Is it really as simple as a double overhand knot except using two lines?

This website says that the Blood Knot is not as strong as the Surgeons Knot. That seems in conflict to what I read elsewhere. I would love it to be true as the Surgeons Knot is easier to tie.

Does this site seem to tie the Albright in the normal way? They do an extra step.
http://myweb.cableone.net/stairway/index_flyfishingknots.html
Also their knot strength ratings seem off. For example, they rate the Albright stronger than the Blood Knot but in pulling tests I have not seen anything beat the Blood Knot. They also show the Trilene Knot as potentially stronger than the Palomar, but in testing, that almost never seems to be true. What do you make of this? Do people just quote knot strength from the knot promoters and not use independent testing?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:49:39 AM by rsilvers »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 09:05:43 PM »
Here are the knots I decided to try to remember for fishing/boating use:
1. Palomar - attaching fish hooks, etc. Easy to do and highest strength. Good for braided superlines where other knots are not.
One can find various dressings/orientations of this hitch -- from express instruction to bring the loop
back on the knot side of the hook eye but only just, to Budworth's showing it brought all
the way back around the S.Part; YMMV !?  Strength begs some questions, though; I'm still
trying to figure out Why ... this knot would stand apart from others.

Quote
2. Blood Knot - best knot for splicing two lines of same thickness. Also you can clip the ends close. Does not need access to entire line.
Hmmm, not best for gel-spun lines, reportedly.  This knot is often shown in a final
form that isn't really possible in fishline (fortunately), which points to the presenters
as remarkably unfamiliar with their subject!  For different thicknesses, I 've seen it
recommended to double the thinner line.  As for access to the entire line, well,
I guess fishing gear is one not so common application where that might be possible
(tying on a "leader"), but in general one shouldn't expect access to other than the
end; and no knot really requires it, though it might be much easier to tie thus.

Quote
5. Figure-Eight loop. Strongest loop but can jam under high stress.
 Also Surgeons (double) loop is ok but no reason to use it over the figure-eight.
However, if you need to wrap around an object first, then use a double bowline.
If you can make the loop in advance, the Bowline has no reason to exist except perhaps easier to adjust the loop.
Whoa!  Somehow I think we've just made the transition from "fishing" to "boating"
(without naming an eyeknot for angling -- "double surgeon's" will do.  But, ... "Bimini Twist" ?).

"Strongest loop":  1) don't be so sure (Fig.9 is usually rated higher, and ...); 2) don't
think you know how the knot was tied (e.g., which END was loaded --there are two
parallel ends emerging from the knot, and presentations often make no distinction
between them (image will show both going out of the image space))!  Consider that
knot strength is both poorly understood/tested for and greatly overrated; but it is such
an easy-to-generate-&-cite seemingly objective figure.  (BAH!)

Bowline has the quite obvious reason d'etre of being easy to untie, unjamming!  Beyond
that, I think one can make bowline extensions that improve its strength, but we are long
awaiting eagerly Agent_Smith's continued testing of such interesting things (and others').
The Dbl.Bwl. is okay, but there are extensions to the single which might be better liked.

Quote
6. Alpine butterfly -- for putting a loop mid-line.
Among other like knots.  "Directional" eyeknots are in this subclass for use when one
knows the direction that the eye can be loaded (and I suspect that this is true in most
cases of mid-line eyeknots).

Quote
7. Cleat Hitch - to make a boat fast.
And this gets presented in various forms.  The one that seems to carry best recommendations
is to bring the end under the far cleat ear and then near ear AND THEN begin the "fig.8"
crossings.  Depending upon application, one can find debates about whether to finish with
a locking half-hitch.  From some various examinations of moored boats, it's quite surprising
how few came with a "proper" cleat hitch!  -- just lots of wraps, and so on.

Quote
8. Double-overhand stopper knot - best stopper knot. Figure-8 is ok if you want to be easy to undo.
What's your criteria for "best" ?  The Ashely's Stopper (aka "Oysterman's" but since it turned out
NOT to be so, why echo the misnomer?) presents a broader and balanced stopper face, even if
overall bulk is no more or even less -- and it is so quickly formed (but one must haul hard to set
well the overand component if significant force is expected; finishing with a slip-bight might
help give strength/resistance to collapse).  Surprisingly, echoes of this knot have been botched
by even IGKT members!  It is an Overhand noose with the end simply tucked (or its bight)
through the noose-eye and then that hauled tight upon it.
QUITE to my surprise, I have YET to find it **in the wild** --such a quickly tied, easily
understood (should be!), and functional knot, well enough publicized, but no sign ...
(commercial fishing searching, mostly)!?

One more remark about "best stopper":  so far as I know (how to tie...), ONLY the Overhand
stopper knot can be well set snug against something , e.g., in the end of a whipping
to stop the end from gradually being worked loose back out of some finishing tuck.  Or,
in tying of kernmantle rope in caving/climbing, Two Half-Hitches can be secured by putting
in a Slip-knot (slipped Overhand stopper this is) to prevent the final HH from loosening.

Quote
Notes: I read Bowline needs to be a double to be almost as strong as a figure-eight, but it still needs a stopper knot to be really secure. Also Bowline does not like to be loaded on the loop or it may untie. So I will not use it unless I need to easily wrap around an object.
http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/safety_2.htm#bowline
Ah, TradGirl (which I think has been maintained for some years/decade by faithful
followers to her?) !
One can read almost anything, and in rockclimbing forums, the most appalling nonsense.
But, yes, in climbing rope the basic bowline cries out for precautions against loosening!
There are simple extensions (making the same rabbit-around-tree-back-into-hole maneuvre
on one leg of the eye, e.g. --the leg that comes from the nipping loop, from S.Part) that
can give security and at least one extra diameter in rounding the central loop of the knot
which should boost strength.  (Some tests of Dbl.Bwl show no gain in strength; but do
you EVER see clear indication of the geometry of tested knots???  (no) (until Agent_Smith
activated his camera -- ANY camera (and, well, yes, in www.rockclimbing.com's The Lab
forum with testing by moderator Arik.)

Quote
Also, when someone says "Surgeons" for a basic knot or loop can I assume they basically always mean Double Surgeons?
Don't assume, but be chary of knots nomenclature.  HERE, with "knot tyers" of the IGKT,
"surgeon's" is more likely to denote the enhanced version of a Square/Reef knot, such as
is sometimes used by, think..., surgeon's; how anglers came to hijack that name to
an eyeknot is unknown.  "Double" gets various uses in various places and with wild variance.

Quote
Is it really as simple as a double overhand knot except using two lines?
It seems to be.  Note that here, too, as another parallel-strands knot, there can be two
obvious orientations of the parts; in fiddly little fishline, it will be tedious to select deliberately.

Quote
This website says that the Blood Knot is not as strong as the Surgeons Knot. That seems in conflict to what I read elsewhere. I would love it to be true as the Surgeons Knot is easier to tie.
ANY assertion about knot strength that comes independent of particular material
is dubious!  And how much precise strength matters is an important question
--e.g., in any life-safety application nothing should be coming near any break strength.
As far as I've searched, rigorous testing seems to be hard to find.

Quote
Also their knot strength ratings seem off. For example, they rate the Albright stronger than the Blood Knot but in pulling tests I have not seen anything beat the Blood Knot. They also show the Trilene Knot as potentially stronger than the Palomar, but in testing, that almost never seems to be true. What do you make of this? Do people just quote knot strength from the knot promoters and not use independent testing?
Got any spare fishline?  You could do your own Knot-A vs. Knot-B testing, and get some other
idea of strengths -- slow pull and then dynamic shock.  With repetition to establish consistency
or show its absence.  (One immediate question to ask is on what do testers base their
% figure:  have they themselves established by testing the strength of their material,
of have they relied on vendor information?  --in the latter cases, one needs to be very
chary of comparing different testers' results; I recall one fellow testing some many (20+?)
brands of fishline and finding variance of over 200% of actual vs. rated line strength!!!

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 08:31:08 PM by Dan_Lehman »

rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 09:09:57 PM »
Thanks. I will read your replies in detail later today.

Here is one test of many lines with a Palomar knot:

http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbontest.html

Here are some cool tests on video:

http://www.fishingclub.com/ExtraContent/ExtraContentDetail.aspx?id=132344


rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »
I just learned of the Rosenthal / Zeppelin Bend.

How come this is not popular? It seems so much simpler than the Blood Knot and others shown for fishing and boating.

I will have to conduct tests unless someone has.

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-zeppelin-bend-knot/

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 08:27:20 PM »
I just learned of the Rosenthal / Zeppelin Bend.
And you've learned this where?  -- i.e., was the spelling really 'thal' and not 'dahl'?
For the correct name is 'Rosendahl'.  (Toss has it wrong in Rigger's Apprentice, e.g.;
and I admit to uncertainty in suspecting the error just now!  There used to be on-line
a copy of an old article in which the publishers by title introduced "Zeppelin Knot".)
The URLink'd page below has it right.

Quote
How come this is not popular? It seems so much simpler than the Blood Knot and others shown for fishing and boating.
It's hardly suitable for angling, with its unjamming nature, lesser strength, and
rather square profile and right-angle ends for e.g. running through line guides.

I actually did find one such knot "in the wild," but at a sort of training ship whose
crew could be regarded more as young *progressives* amenable to putting in the
odd novelty (in a dockline), rather than as someone using a regular routine.

Frankly, one could ask the same question about Ashley's #1425 (or 1452, 1408),
which has to my mind better security when slack, and greater strength (and a
nicer related eyeknot).

Quote
I will have to conduct tests unless someone has.
We await your findings (starting w/statement of materials used).

Quote
www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-zeppelin-bend-knot/
Which has the comical assertion:

" it is likely you are not using Zeppelin knots to tie two ropes together and
therefore your very survival could be at stake."

 :o   !!!   ::)

I shudder to think of what the world population would be absent the loss
of so many who've not joined ropes with Rosendahl's Zeppelin Bend!

--dl*
====

ps:  I'm going to edit my long reply above to add a note about "best stopper knot".
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:36:32 AM by Dan_Lehman »

rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 12:01:46 AM »
The name spelling error was mine.

Hmm. I read that the Zeppelin was not at risk when there is no tension. But you say it will swell up and not stay as a tiny little knot? I do see what you mean about the catching on guides possibility with the ends being perpendicular..

If jamming is an ideal feature for fishing, then why is the figure of eight loop not the ultimate loop? They seem to use the Perfection Loop for fly fishing loop connections.

rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 06:45:08 AM »
Did some tests.

With Bass Pro Shops XPS 10lb Fluorocarbon line, I put a Figure of Eight loop on one end, and a Perfection loop on the other. I attached them to carabiners, and pulled. The line broke in the middle and neither knot failed. They are both good knots for this line. Fly fisherman seem to use the Perfection loop for some reason over the F8. I think maybe one advantage of the Perfection loop over the F8 is that it is not canted. Is that true?


I also created two Figure of Eight loops and had a Zeppelin bend in the middle. The bend failed first and did not seem particularly impressive on this line. I will try some more.

I then wanted to test the Blood knot, but could not tie a good one.

I then tried a Surgeron's knot in the middle - a triple, and it held well.

I then had two sections of this line on the outside, and one section of Berkeley 8lb Dyneema braided Fireline in the middle (0.011 inch diameter). I connected one segment with an Albright and the other with an 'improved' Blood knot (with the thin line folded over). The Albright failed but it seemed to fail too easily so maybe it was not a good tie job.

So I cannot tie a Blood knot on line this fine yet. I will try the Uni to Uni as Knot Wars said it was a tie with the Blood knot for strength but was easier to tie. A simple to tie knot that is 75% strong on your given line is a better one to know and teach than an 80% strong one that is easy to make mistakes with as you should not just have a 5% safety margin on a line.

http://www.fishingclub.com/ExtraContent/ExtraContentDetail.aspx?id=132344
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 06:56:53 AM by rsilvers »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2009, 05:47:06 PM »
Hmm. I read that the Zeppelin was not at risk when there is no tension. But you say it will swell up and not stay as a tiny little knot?
Some fishline is a bit two-faced in this:  resistant to bending, springy, but then
able to be crimped into a bend somewhere, and with "memory" to hold that
-- which I think was cited as a historical complaint w/flourocarbon by that site
you gave for the Palomar.
While Rosendahl's Z. bend does surprisingly resist comlete loosening, it does get
loose enough to be a concern, to have a different (more bowline-like) geometry
under load, and to be vulnerable to snagging in rope.  The cross-section of the
knot is more rectangular than square/round, which is not good for axial movement/flow.
Its ends cannot be chopped close as can those of the Blood knot or that of the
Perfection/Angler's loop can be.

Quote
If jamming is an ideal feature for fishing, then why is the figure of eight loop not the ultimate loop?
They seem to use the Perfection Loop for fly fishing loop connections.
Because the Fig.8 perhaps doesn't jam so well, so reliably, and is problematic
in forming (the crisscrossing of strands) ?  I have seen the Fig.9-13 general form
given, also (numbers denoting half-turns >8; the "13" goes out with some, then
wraps back over then w/remainder -- that bit of dressing/orientation itself another
problematic aspect of such knots).

Also, if the popular knot is working well (out fishing, nevermind somewhere being tested),
why bother to change?

Quote
Did some tests.  With Bass Pro Shops XPS 10lb Fluorocarbon line,
I put a Figure of Eight loop on one end, and a Perfection loop on the other.
I attached them to carabiners, and pulled. The line broke in the middle and neither knot failed.
Which should be an incredible result!  The Perfection loop, i.p., is known as about
a 60%-strength knot, though I'm not aware of testing in your particular line.
But breaking away from the knots really does raise a question; I'd NOT take this
as a good indication of knot strength, but of a suggestion of dubious line quality!?
It really is not possible to see how severely compressed or stretched the line is
at the knot (yes?  -- you have at least the benefit now of having two tightened
knots to examine closely, to see what their high-load geometry is:  any surprises?),
and believe that somehow it is not significantly weakened compared to unaffected line.

Quote
Fly fisherman seem to use the Perfection loop for some reason over the F8.
I think maybe one advantage of the Perfection loop over the F8 is that it is not canted. Is that true?
?!  I'm not aware of reasons for preference.  But the degree to which the Fig.8 takes
an angle to the axis of tension depends on its geometry, which end is loaded and
how dressed:  in one symmetric form, with loading on the strand that stays more
interior to the knot re end points (and so somewhat pulls away from its
parallel strand (S.Part from end; eye legs are both loaded)), the knot stays pretty
level w/tension.


Quote
The bend failed first and ...
... only.  (-;

Hey, it puts about a 1-diameter turn in the S.Part, and that looks weak to me.

Quote
I then wanted to test the Blood knot, but could not tie a good one.
Does this mean that even your bad ones went unchallenged?

Quote
I then tried a Surgeron's knot in the middle - a triple, and it held well.
Above we have breaks or not:  what's a "held well" in this ordering of results?
(I'll guess:  it took longer and more apparent force to break this knot, with
the Fig.8s (?) serving to anchor the line?!)

Quote
So I cannot tie a Blood knot on line this fine yet.
Hmmm.  This shouldn't be so hard.  You have I think two options in the tying:
"outcoil" & "incoil", to use Stanley Barnes's terms (ca. 1950); these should give
the same result, which is an incoil form (S.Parts run to extreme ends, then coil
back (overwraps) to a common central tuck; and either tucked out in same or
opposite directions and varying on whether the S.Part turns are same-handed
or not).  (Maybe a saliva test is called for!  :o)

Quote
I will try the Uni to Uni as Knot Wars said it was a tie with the Blood knot for strength but was easier to tie.
A Uni knot according to their small images is a "Fisherman's Bend Knot" [sic: "Fish.KNOT" is
the trad. name, w/"F.BEND" being an anchor hitch ] but with more wraps;
I've long wondered at how such knots were thought to be realized on loading,
as typically angler-knots books show only large blow-ups of TYING forms,
and an indiscernible  squiggle for the finished knot (suggesting that the author
& artist themselves really didn't know what was going on at that point!).

Quote
A simple to tie knot that is 75% strong on your given line is a better one to know and teach
than an 80% strong one that is easy to make mistakes with as you should not just have a 5% safety margin on a line.
For the most part --maybe angling knots are better done-- , I think that the extant testing
is both so poorly done and reported that the commonly quoted figures, even when not
in obvious conflict with each other, cannot be relied upon with confidence.
For one thing, the context of useage & in-use loading is almost surely different
than the typical testing context.

Quote
www.fishingclub.com/ExtraContent/ExtraContentDetail.aspx?id=132344

Thanks for these links (and for bringing discussion of angling knots, in general).
I've not checked (and likely won't from dial-up system at home), but do these tests
give break-strength figures?  -- or only A-v.-B results?  One can look at figures and
their variance for a SINGLE knot and realize that its outcome vs. another nearly
as strong knot could have different outcomes.

--dl*
====

rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2009, 06:49:40 PM »
You say that what they call the UniToUnit know is really the Fisherman's Bent Knot.

The only reference I can find is this:

http://www.animatedknots.com/doublefishermansrescue/index.php

And it is called the 'double' fisherman's bend, and it totally different.

Here is a reference calling it a Uni knot:

http://www.fish4fun.com/Joining2Lines.htm
http://www.netknots.com/html/double_uni_knot.html

rsilvers

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rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2009, 06:55:58 PM »
http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/index.html
Preferred Knots for Use in Canyons

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2009, 05:32:06 PM »
You say that what they call "the Uni-To-Unit knot" is really the Fisherman's Bent Knot.
The only reference I can find is this:
www.animatedknots.com/doublefishermansrescue/index.php
What I said, exactly, is ' A Uni knot according to their small images is a "Fisherman's Bend Knot" ';
you can confirm this yourself by looking at those images -- the difference is in the extent
of wrapping (number), nothing more.  Now, the consequence of beginning with this form
can be varied by the material used and the setting employed.  (I just had no luck in getting
the "Uni" with only 4 tucks in mono-nylon line of about 1/30 inch (sorry, I don't know its
rated strength/size (flotsam-jetsam)) to take either regular form -- i.e., contorting into
that of the Multiple Fisherman's knot or the reverse multi-AnchorBend form.)

So, in any case, THIS reference is what you found, and your next isn't "only".
(The Grog site takes an editorial stance in naming the knot "Bend" -- that is contrary
Ashley and history, so far as one can discern; "fish. bend" is a name for what Grog gives
as "Anchor Bend", as the site notes, citing Ashley.)

I will remark again:  angling knots are typically shown as little more than undecipherable
squiggles in their completed forms, so it can be hard to know what result is intended by the
tying instructions.  Frankly, the form of a Reverse Anchor Bend/Hitch that is the initial form
of this Uni Knot doesn't seem very strong; much must come from the Paul-Bunyan effect
of we knot tyers having much greater setting force than will come from in-use loading,
and so the setting can achieve more than would come in rope with manual loading.
(I.p., that apparent Uni Knot form doesn't look like something that would grip the line
to form a loop --yes, some guidance admits to slippage at high loads-- , as the turns
are not further tightened by use (whereas that of a Dbl.Fish. is a little more so).
And it is called the 'double' fisherman's bend, and it's totally different.

(Let me observe that their image for the Wolf Knot in "Round 12" conflicts with their
tying guidance, which says to wrap "around both lines" and yet the image shows
wrapping around only its own line -- not both!)

Quote
Check this out:  www.xmission...[Tom Moyer's Offset bends page]
and
www.[Bushwalkers Rescue Service] page
As you might guess, I'm rather more than familiar with Tom's page, although he
suspended active testing before looking into those offset bends I provided to him.
The Bushwalkers testing is the only one I know of with results for flow of knots over
a rough surface; but as their set of candidate bends was soooo small, one must
see their recommendation as limited in significance (ditto for other aspects).

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 07:01:06 PM by Dan_Lehman »

rsilvers

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 05:29:11 PM »
I got to test my knot in real life:



Zeppelin Bend

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2009, 11:59:09 PM »
Dang, why didn't I think of that.  Soon as the neighbor returns my backhoe,
I'm gonna ... what?!

What is it that we're supposed to get from this post re "Zeppelin bend" ?

 ???


[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Help me pick some knot to learn and use often.
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »
As I have sometimes made makeshift slings with the zeppelin myself, I guess that's it. There's a sling, and it might be tied with a zeppelin bend.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 10:19:27 AM by Inkanyezi »
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