Author Topic: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?  (Read 12119 times)

geminijim

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« on: June 18, 2009, 05:50:45 AM »
Hello everyone, glad to finally be joining this forum.

I haven't seen this anywhere else, but by the same logic of the Zeppelin bend -> Zeppelin loop, I have adapted the Carrick bend (ends opposed) as a loop by laying the working end of the first overhand loop back over the loop parallel to the standing part, then working it under-over-under-over. Take out the slack and pull the standing part and opposite leg to collapse the knot. It seems to be quite secure, and I would expect it to be comparable to the bend in strength and security. It is easier (for me) than the Zeppelin loop because it is basically tied just like the bend. It also seems to have an advantage over the Zeppelin loop and double dragon in that the working end tends to lie inside the loop parallel to the leg, like in the bowline, rather than sticking out at a right angle.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this loop, and what its disadvantages might be.

Thanks,
Jim

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1801
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 05:07:46 PM »
Hello everyone, glad to finally be joining this forum.

I haven't seen this anywhere else, but by the same logic of the Zeppelin bend -> Zeppelin loop, I have adapted the Carrick bend (ends opposed) as a loop by laying the working end of the first overhand loop back over the loop parallel to the standing part, then working it under-over-under-over. Take out the slack and pull the standing part and opposite leg to collapse the knot. It seems to be quite secure, and I would expect it to be comparable to the bend in strength and security. It is easier (for me) than the Zeppelin loop because it is basically tied just like the bend. It also seems to have an advantage over the Zeppelin loop and double dragon in that the working end tends to lie inside the loop parallel to the leg, like in the bowline, rather than sticking out at a right angle.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this loop, and what its disadvantages might be.

Thanks,
Jim

Go to your local hardware store and pick up some slick polypropylene to test the loop via slack repetitive shaking.  This loop is one of the first tied by people who are trying bends as a loop.   However the (Double) Carrick bend form carries itself loosely, which may be the reason for its mediocre security.  It fared better in the natural fiber ropes back when manila fiber was king.

Tied as a loop, more problems occur.  If you alternately pull legs to simulate swinging or rotation some unsettling things can occur.  You may also want to try ring loading the loop in polypropylene, so that you make the loop act as if something is trying to expand it.  You may be unhappy with the results.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 06:07:39 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


geminijim

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 10:47:44 PM »

Go to your local hardware store and pick up some slick polypropylene to test the loop via slack repetitive shaking.  This loop is one of the first tied by people who are trying bends as a loop.   However the (Double) Carrick bend form carries itself loosely, which may be the reason for its mediocre security.  It fared better in the natural fiber ropes back when manila fiber was king.

Tied as a loop, more problems occur.  If you alternately pull legs to simulate swinging or rotation some unsettling things can occur.  You may also want to try ring loading the loop in polypropylene, so that you make the loop act as if something is trying to expand it.  You may be unhappy with the results.

Thanks, Roo. I see what you mean. I still think it could work well in hollow tape (specifically I tried paracord mantle). It capsizes into a very tight compact knot that doesn't distort no matter which way I pull it. And it's still at least as easy to untie as a bowline.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 05:29:53 PM »
Yes, this knot has been tried/tied; it's pretty neat.  (But there are sooooo many
eyeknots!)  And, there are other logics to finding corresponding eyeknots
for bends, where one essentially doubles one half of the bend by bringing the
end from the eye back into the knot in a parallel way.

Quote
It also seems to have an advantage over the Zeppelin loop and double dragon in that the working end
 tends to lie inside the loop parallel to the leg, like in the bowline, rather than sticking out at a right angle.

Whoa, what???  The ends of the Carrick bend, and the end(no 's') of the corresponding
eyeknot of issue also, stick out at roughly a 45-90deg angle, and away from the eye!?

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 05:36:23 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Bob Thrun

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 04:22:55 AM »
I played some with the Carrick Loop.  It seemed to be able to be pulled and dressed into a stable, secure form.  I have not tried it with really slick rope like Dyneema.  There are at least two versions of the Carrick Loop, depending on whether the major axis of the Carrick Bend is aligned with the loop or the standing part.  The may be four variations, debending on which side the fne comes out. 

Both the Bowline and the Carrick Loop have the advantage that they only require that a round turn be made and then a short section of the end is threaded through the round turn.  In contrast, the Rosendahl Loop requires that the full circumference of the loop must be pulled through an overhand knot.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 09:09:42 PM »
I have not tried it with really slick rope like Dyneema. 

I was impressed not long ago when I fiddled an interestingly looking compact mid-line
eyeknot and it held in some pure Spectra (HMPE, like Dyneema) cord, under some good
strain via body weight & pulley; then, in 6mm climbing kernmantle nylon, the knot did
NOT hold:  seems that in this case the firmer roundness of the kernmantle over the
soft compressibility of the 12-strand HMPE braid made the difference in security.
(I'll not venture to assert that the knot would hold to rupture in either, but at least
at this cursory check, these were the results.)

--dl*
====

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 07:00:33 AM »
As an answer to the original question, yes, it has been on the board before, see http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=434.msg3568#msg3568

The Wave method of tying the Carrick Bend is one of the simplest, and it was first invented as a loop.

It might be noted, that in normal rope sizes, the end of the right side in the pictures, the one held in the right hand while tying, should be rather long, to my experience, in 10-14 mm rope, it should hang down a bit past the elbow when you hold the bight in your hand. It is however a lot faster than trying to reeve the end through the knot pattern.
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Carrick Bend adapted as end of line loop?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 07:23:31 PM »
I'm really liking the Carrick Loop because no pre-knot is required, a fault of the Zeppelin Loop and Butterfly Loop.  In my testing, the Carrick Loop holds quite securely in 550 paracord, as does the Carrick Bend.

As mentioned earlier, there may be issues with slick, stiff cordage.  However, I've found that practically all loops (including the Zeppelin Loop) have trouble there.  You may need to modify your knot with a proper backup, whatever that knot may be.  It would be nice if one loop could be the all-around best loop for all situations and cordage, but I have not found one yet.  (No, the Zeppelin Loop is not the best solution for everything.)

Many people may be afraid of the Carrick Bend/Loop because they think it's too difficult to tie.  I used to feel the same way, until I learned this method from Ink.  Now, the Carrick Bend/Loop is one my easiest.
http://web.comhem.se/~u77479609/Carrick%20Bend.html

I played some with the Carrick Loop.  It seemed to be able to be pulled and dressed into a stable, secure form.  I have not tried it with really slick rope like Dyneema.  There are at least two versions of the Carrick Loop, depending on whether the major axis of the Carrick Bend is aligned with the loop or the standing part.  The may be four variations, debending on which side the fne comes out.  

Both the Bowline and the Carrick Loop have the advantage that they only require that a round turn be made and then a short section of the end is threaded through the round turn.  In contrast, the Rosendahl Loop requires that the full circumference of the loop must be pulled through an overhand knot.

I agree.  The Carrick Loop is a beauty in any cordage that behaves similarly to paracord, or anything more forgiving of course.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 09:15:06 PM by knot4u »