Author Topic: A comment about using TABLES in the instruction videos of PRACTICAL KNOTS  (Read 4584 times)

alpineer

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IT DRIVES ME FRICKIN' CRAZY WHEN THEY DO THAT!!!!!!
When do you find a table to aid in tying a knot: on a mountain
                                                                   in a rescue scenario
                                                                   in a farmer's field
                                                                   ....
My unsolicited advice is watch them for their RIDICULOUSNESS and nothing more than that. The use of a table to tie a practical knot is actually a HINDRANCE and a DISSERVICE to those who are learning. The method of tying MUST be appropriate to the environs in which they are tied.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 07:12:51 AM by alpineer »

Knot Head

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Then I take it that you have never made a tutorial before? I am just curious if you have.
Regards,
Brian Kidd

[Inkanyezi] gone

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I fully agree with alpineer on this subject, even if it doesn't drive me crazy...

But I have indeed made instruction videos, and I have made tutorials and am presently working on one. Of course the method of tying a knot should be shown in a scenario that resembles normal conditions where the knot is used. A knot tied in hand should be shown as such, but not necessarily under the awkward conditions under which it sometimes might be used.

To get it straight; I never ever tie a working knot on a table, and in a tutorial on knots, it is not much help to the person that wants to learn, if I outline some pattern of a knot on a table. In fact, most of the videos I have seen of knot tying have errors, more or less severe, but fundamental errors. I don't see the problem as much as being limited to tabletops, but the more disturbing one is that most knot tutorials are not to be trusted.

I give as an example an instructive video I made on the bowline, the video is in Swedish, and the surprise moment comes in the last minute, it starts at 1 minute 40 seconds and the height is 5 seconds from 2.33 to 2.38. It is a tutorial on how to securely tie a bowline into a closed structure in a NY nanosecond. There are several crucial features to the choreography of this method of tying the knot, the two most important ones are that the marlingspike hitch must be kept open and when the knot is drawn up, the working end must be held away from you. But anyone who follows the steps of this dance (oh yes, it is choreography) can make the knot securely under demanding conditions. And I can assure you that nobody would be helped by the pattern laid out on a table. When I show this to firefighters, I do it with a smoke diver's suit on and gloves, and we repeat it over and over in the smoke chamber, attaching the rope to the belt of a guy in front of you. Most can do it in about five seconds inside the chamber with gloves on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTApTsLIe1g 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 07:24:37 PM by Inkanyezi »
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squarerigger

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Dear Alpineer and Inkanyezi,

You are both absolutely correct that tying a knot on a table is not what happens in practice.  Neither does everyone learn by only one method.  You may have forgotten (or perhaps never experienced) the frustration that some people feel when they are trying to learn how to tie a knot for the first time and someone ties a knot in a place that can neither be seen nor felt by anyone other than the tyer.  To tie the knot on a table is but the FIRST step - you did not learn to walk by watching a speed racer walking toward you, nor did you learn from a book on a table.  You learned by copying (unless of course you are especially gifted and ran before even walking).  To copy someone, you need to see exactly what they are doing.  You learned to walk by perhaps standing on your father's or mother's feet while they walked - you copied the motion with your muscles.  Your brain works a little like that (at least it does for many people I have come across) and you learn by repetition, by theory, by example, by written instruction and by copying or by some combination of all methods or just a selection of those methods.

Be frustrated then - but please don't tell others who are just starting out that this (tying on a table) is wrong or a hindrance - instead provide a good example of what is good and is right for all readers and viewers by making your own video, and DO expect that some people cannot learn in mirror image - they need to see what their OWN hands must do, not what YOUR hands are doing at them.  You have both provided valuable comment that explains your frustrations - commendable and understandable - now how about putting your knowledge and expertise into a more practical form and giving us all the benefit of what you propose as the 2 minute 30-second video method that tells us EXACTLY what we should do (and here you should consider that perhaps not everyone is as clever) to tie each knot.  As for covering the environs where they will apply the knot - who is it that knows where everyone will tie their knot?  If you produce a video that covers tying the knot in the farmer's field, will that be applicable to tying the same knot at sea or on a glacier?  I am looking forward to your own versions.... ;D

SR

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Of course you are right, squarerigger.

I'd say I'm really more frustrated at the moment just by that; I don't have a suitable partner to take the videos that I have to do for the instructions, covering exactly what it looks like from the position of the knot tyer. However, I have done these instructions many times irl, so I know that I must show what it looks like from inside the hand instead of just trying to make someone else mirror what's seen from front.

And I think we won't need the farmer's field or barn for a farmer's knot; we need only as much environmental support, that one can imagine and train. Because just as you say, walking is not learned by watching a speed walker from front. Walking is learned by repeating over and over, sometimes falling, but never giving up.

And tying on a table may indeed be a way to start, but I don't do that with the firefighters, and I don't think it's a lot of help for them to learn the usual seaman's method, as it is of no use for them. They are not tying up ships, they may be dragging out people from dangerous environments or attaching the rope to something they find, whether as a strongpoint or for moving it. In essence; every time this knot has to be tied, it is tied into a closed structure and never laid over a post or bollard.

But of course, it is worth the while to know what the knot pattern is like; it is a help while you rehearse the dance, so you can check that you did it right.

What's common, between the art of walking and the art of tying a knot, is that it has to be rehearsed over and over, until you no longer have to think about it, but just do it.

Postedit: Indeed some knots may be tied on a table, or as in this case, on the floor in an instructive way. It amazes me however, that among several videos on YouTube on how to tie a bowline knot, I didn't find any with this method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLtmkV5Z9c4

So indeed, instructions can be done outside of the actual environment; the most important thing is that the instructions are correct and next comes that they are easy to follow. Then of course, you should be able to do it also in the environment where you are supposed to use the knot.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 11:28:37 AM by Inkanyezi »
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alpineer

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Then I take it that you have never made a tutorial before? I am just curious if you have.


Hello Knot Head,

I had forgotten I had posted this thread. But, to answer your question, yes I have, once, about 6 wks. ago. And I quickly came to appreciate how difficult it is to convey this kind of information. In the end, I felt I had to stop bashing my brains and just post something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 07:43:51 AM by alpineer »

Knot Head

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Hi all,

I am prior service and yes in that instance it does help to learn by, or in your environment. But when it came to tying knots, to which the only one at that time I could tie with my eyes closed were my boots and shoes, the instructions that came to me via a video or through photos all contained a table top of some sort. Without that kind of detail and the ability to practice what I was learning before going to my environment, I would have just gotten frustrated with it and just tossed the rope away and said forget it.

Fortunately, I had a very tolerant instructor who loved to tie knots as much as my desire to learn. All I needed was the proper people and the many different ways to learn available to me. I'm not like some people are with learning. I can utilize my learning skills in 4 ways, Sight, Intellectually, and hands on, LISTENING... Once I discovered that all 3 of those senses were alive and just barely at their peak, I went wild with learning and hence like a sponge. When I see something new that I have never seen or experienced in knot tying and leather braiding, I am no longer intimidated by it, but excited by it. Most of the people I used to hang around with were either intimidated by the learning processes that it takes to learn something new, or just too lazy. Looking at that made me curious as to why those 2 reactions took place and here's what I came up with;

1. Intimidation - They would think that what is to learn is too far beyond them and they will never learn, or be able to succeed at it. Which leads to number,
2. Lazy - They have given up before they even have given their brain a chance to learn about it.

I am sorry if this offends anyone. But from my own experience this is what I have bumped into often. It is not my intent to offend anyone by this post. But if you, like I have, have taken a look at what really occurs when someone shows an interest and then 2 or 3 days later, or weeks later, decides that it is too much for them too learn, then I have to stop and look at what is being taught and how it is being taught. An instructor can only make the instructions, or lessons so easy. In todays society here in the states, most of the youngins are learning by click and go, the can I learn it now or just forget it world.

Knot tying and leather braiding is just one of the few arts and crafts left that require practice and time for learning. Most of the youngins here in the states don't want to take the time for it. Instead, they would rather sit in front of the TV, or the XBox and others, or be texting to their buddies. I am deeply saddened by the fact that the arts and crafts are not taken more seriously by the young people today. Unfortunately, I feel though that the art and craft may die when we die.

Brian...
 :(
Regards,
Brian Kidd

squarerigger

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Hi Brian,

Just to post a different perspective on the young folk with whom I have come in contact....

I have had a very few young people ask, walk away and give up.  When they approach, they want to know and it is up to me to find what it is that excites their interest.  They take it (learning) very seriously and they want to learn more.  They are as excited as I am about the subject of the world and, if I do not ask them about their other habits like using the Xbox or texting or twittering, I find they are curious and want to know more about what I am doing fiddling with a bit of string.  I focus on what is interesting to me - the learning process.  I want to know how I can reach them, what their interests are, and I will keep at it until I find the way in.  Just as they must be persistent, so must I - and sometimes it takes the works of the world.  I have not given up and similarly, I am not at all disappointed on the "failures" who walk on by and say "not for me".  Those are kids I have yet to reach and may never reach.  I am very willing to reach out to those that DO want to learn and I am very gratified that there are droves of these kids out there.  This Sunday the Pacific Americas Branch members are going to be at the EcoFest Children's day in Culver City, California.  We will likely see about 4000 or so kids who all will be asking questions, maybe not all about knots, but certainly about their world.  It is up to us to reach out to them and not wait for them to come to us.

Lindsey   ;D
aka SR

aknotter

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And, we have a Knot Table that really draws them in. It will sometimes spark more questions about more knots. It provides a "starting point" for many kids as well as adults. Made by our President, Mike Bromley. 4 sides, each with the 6 knot challenge knots.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 12:57:16 AM by aknotter »
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