Author Topic: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"  (Read 16072 times)

Mike

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
Re: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 05:00:15 AM »
[/size]

« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:03:06 AM by Mike »

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
Re: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 05:26:08 AM »
Alpineer,

As you may know, the Farmer's Loop can assume a number of forms depending on how forces are applied to it as it is drawn up.  I think I may have found a form that allows a method of end-tying that borders on memorable for knot enthusiasts.  This must be what you have in mind.

To use bowline imagery, the rabbit goes under the hole toward the tree, around the tree, and then goes into the hole, under its own path, and back out of the hole.   Does this sound familiar, or am I chasing the wrong form?

The form I originally tried made me think you were being quite optimistic about people's spatial memorization abilities.  Anyway, I hope this isn't too much of a diversion from the original focus of the thread.

That's it Roo,
An excellent way of describing it too.

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1874
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2009, 07:07:46 AM »
Mike,

You're quick with the camera!  I'm not going to tell you what you can and cannot remember long term.   One thing I will note is how knots that actually get used by the public are either essentially simple (e.g. overhand knot/loop, pile hitch, timber hitch), made up of memorable elements (e.g. reef knot & its variants), or they have some gimmick to force correct decisions in the under and over sequence (e.g. one hand twist of the bowline).  That is something that is currently lacking in the Double-Dragon-as-an-end-loop methods. 

A quick note of some places to go wrong:

Diagram 2:  Which way for the coil?
Diagram 3:  Which side to insert end?
Diagram 5:  Over or under first obstacle?  Then there a number of tucking options.

I'm not going to remember that after the diagram is taken away and a few months elapse, even if I practice.  And I'm used to knotting.  Perhaps some improvements could be made. 
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4075
Re: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 08:14:15 AM »
I would like everyones opinion on wich is better in terms strength, ease of tying, ease of untying, ect.
I am trying to find a strong and practical alternative to the popular Bowline.
For some reason, and I don't really know why,  I just don't like the Bowline.
The Double Dragon and Perfection loop, so far, are the two best alternatives I have found.


You've told us nothing about your intended application (and nOne's asked).
Your photos show BWII, which could be for TR anchoring or caving, or ... ?
What do you have in mind?
It's also hard to work with "some reason, ... don't know why"  as a point of
departure in seeking alternatives.  And yet you seem to know enough to be
quick to exclude any but the two you ask about!  --for some  reason.

As Roo states, the Perfection/Angler's loop (#1017) will be prone to jamming
in rope.  (To my surprise, I found one discarded Commercial-Fishing cordage
knotted w/these qua mid-line eyeknots.)  The jamming will stand in contrast
to the Dlb.Dragon, and that might point to a chafing issue re the DD--since
the S.Part can move back & forth with cyclical loading.  The DD looks good,
to my eye, for traditional (slow-pull) strength aspects.  (On a 2nd look, maybe
the chafe vulnerability's not so bad.)

I think you have your choice in mind.  I know of no testing on either of these
knots; and of the testings I do know about, I would mostly have more questions
than confidence in their results--seldom, if ever, is enough detail given to
enable someone to repeat the testing.  I don't find your tying method all so
problematic, once you know what you're after; the initial two stages can come
error-free (vis-a-vis Roo's "which way?" re apparent insertion of end into loop)
by seeing the tying as slapping the end into the S.Part and making the impact
cast the loop in it; it's an easy way to begin anti-bowlines (it is the defining
aspect of the "anti-"--opposite the bowline's direction).

Elsewhere in this forum among recent threads are some regarding some
novel extensions to the bowline; you should review these for useful
information.  (We are now a month plus waiting for the next installment
of test data from Agent_Smith--starving for it!)

-----------

You claimed that the Fig.9 couldn't, though the Fig.8 could, be tied around
an object:  that's not true--EVERY eyeknot can be (though for some it might
be a difficult operation).  I could even suggest a symmetric Fig.9 structure for
your solution, or an alternative Fig.8:  see the white rope's eyeknot at this
URLink (I'll not test now whether the "click on image" coding works--it has
and has not in a couple other places--; click the URL for that) :


 www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVofWer


--dl*
====

Mike

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
Re: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 03:09:02 AM »
Mike,

You're quick with the camera!  I'm not going to tell you what you can and cannot remember long term.   One thing I will note is how knots that actually get used by the public are either essentially simple (e.g. overhand knot/loop, pile hitch, timber hitch), made up of memorable elements (e.g. reef knot & its variants), or they have some gimmick to force correct decisions in the under and over sequence (e.g. one hand twist of the bowline).  That is something that is currently lacking in the Double-Dragon-as-an-end-loop methods. 

A quick note of some places to go wrong:

Diagram 2:  Which way for the coil?
Diagram 3:  Which side to insert end?
Diagram 5:  Over or under first obstacle?  Then there a number of tucking options.

I'm not going to remember that after the diagram is taken away and a few months elapse, even if I practice.  And I'm used to knotting.  Perhaps some improvements could be made. 

Roo, I have no problem remembering this method, and I can tie, dress, and set in less than 20 seconds every time. That is actually my preferred method, even when it's not going around or through an object.



Quote from: Dan_Lehman
You've told us nothing about your intended application (and nOne's asked).
Your photos show BWII, which could be for TR anchoring or caving, or ... ?
What do you have in mind?
It's also hard to work with "some reason, ... don't know why"  as a point of
departure in seeking alternatives.  And yet you seem to know enough to be
quick to exclude any but the two you ask about!  --for some  reason.

Dan, I just want a strong "end of line" loop for everyday use, work and home.  I also want it to look good.  The bowline is a very ugly knot, IMO.  I want a loop where both legs of the loop imerge from the middle, not one from the middle and one from the side, as the bowline does. I chose to exclude other choices because my OCD wont allow me to have too many things to ponder, it drives me crazy.  I guess you are correct in saying I have already made up my mind, I guess I just wanted to hear others opinions.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 03:11:02 AM by Mike »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4075
Re: Double Dragon vs. Perfection Loop for "End of Line Loop"
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2009, 07:58:16 PM »
Dan, I just want a strong "end of line" loop for everyday use, work and home.  I also want it to look good.  The bowline is a very ugly knot, IMO.  I want a loop where both legs of the loop emerge from the middle, not one from the middle and one from the side, as the bowline does.

There are extended/secured versions of the Bowline in which the eye legs
emerge adjacent to each other, having been brought together by the
extension (a wrap of the end around them, tucking back into the knot
to render a sort of mirror image (same look "coming & going" (i.e., one
could cut the eye and fuse end & SPart and it would be the same));
and this version won't have that *ugly* end sticking out perpendicular
to the axis of tension like the Dbl.Dragon. <smile>

(-;