Author Topic: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues  (Read 35173 times)

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 02:28:24 PM »
An update. Chapters 3,4,5,20,21,22,26 and 40 are now either complete or being completed. Leaving Chapters 1 and 2 until last (as they largely repeat later knots) does anyone else wish to join the 4 of us currently working on this?

Barry

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 04:31:12 PM »
i think that we could / should include page nos., and that the person doing a chapter should also include chaptNo. and chaptName; or they should be added by 'collector' in bulk as 1 spreadsheet would contain before joining to the rest of the heard.  Then, when broken up into sorting on any of the columns in spread sheet(sort by name, use, page, chapter etc. it would be sorted, searchable by chap etc.  This would also give more friendly info base, introduction to the lacing (by descriptive chap name), and perhaps help verify if that was what reader was searching for.  Perhaps should be more than 1 altNames field, so that if more than 1 name, could alphabetically sort to both, or dbl. entry just for same (copy above row verbatim, except for the different altName.

You can export from excel with varied delimiters (in addition to space) such as .csv (comma separated values), txt(tab delimiter) etc.  But, there are also more powerful free converters.  Also, xml might be the way to go at some point? 

Should allow, make space, implemeant, other reference picture links or info links.  After assembling all of this, getting it to mysql etc.; you are 1 step away from making a static form, to fill with the dynamic data from mysql, and putting a picture on it for anyone coming to this site.  Having most of the pix links to this site eventually  would look good, and further set this place as the recognized authority.  Being recognized so, could increase site in terms of it's size and readership as well as members of site, igkt etc.    Also, cross referancing to other books would be good in future.  If someone was looking at book to buy, site to go to, they could search target knots and see what book or site has most of type of lacings they seek.  So, not to increase the workload, but if someone is doing a chapter that they have chosen by familiarity or fascination, and it is no workload added, jsut work saved later, perhaps they could be included.  In some of the working knots there are safety and usage icons that might also be faithfully noted, and/or extend those icons to more knots, or choose separate of same on broader base, to indicate safety and usage.  The more meaningful stuff sifted out on a pass thru, the better the potential of the final form.  So, perhaps a larger 'skeleton' to hang stuff on, but optional to fill.  Just do what you have the most powerful assets towards on the optional stuff, too much trouble save for another pass(er).  Hopefully once enough is showable and running, more will add in what is easy for them...

We might seek out others, that might have come and gone; because this is the stuff that hasn't been here, but should have been.  i have a few people in mind to bounce the idea off of, but think everyone hear should have '1st shot' etc.  It seems like at this step of the evolution, bored members that might not read here - browser just shortcuts right to "Fancy and Decorative Knotwork" forum, never sees rest etc.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 05:29:42 PM by TheTreeSpyder »

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 06:28:27 PM »
I am with you on this and perhaps it would be helpful if I set out where we are and where I see this project going.  First off I have a control sheet which shows a lsit of the chapters in ABOK (number and title), the knot numbers in each chapter and who is analysing which.  At the first pass I would hope that as well as knot names and some other simple data we can also note those entries which are not knots (eg cleats, fastenings) and the primary entry for each knot (eg the bowline at 1010) so that duplicates refer back to a primary entry - it will be interesting to see how many actual knots there are. Perhaps we should note knot designs as such ie a piece made from a number of knots such as a wall hanging. Page numbers are not in the spreadsheet at present but I don't mind adding those at the end in one pass. The aim at this stage is to create a list of all 3855 or so knot entries with basic data about each. 

This will then be made available for initial checking and validation then exported into MySql tables to allow for expansion eg the names of a knot will be in a related table so that additions will be simplified as will searching. This gives us a good jumping off point to add,enhance and correct data whilst also providing a repository for knots not in ABOK (though many may predate ABOK in publication), perhaps with numbers starting at 4000. I am all for adding links to pictures, videos etc whether on the IGKT site or elsewhere but this is a later phase.

I should add that other than informally Council are not aware of this project - they will have to approve any expenditure in due course such as adding to the website.  But I think it will give the project some real clout if we can show that a first pass through ABOK has been completed and this is not just pie in the sky.

Finally thanks TheTreeSpyder for your helpful post and for volunteering to join the merry band.

Barry

KnotMe

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 06:56:01 PM »
I'm having trouble visualizing both what you are doing and how you are doing it, thus making it very difficult to help.

I take it the four of you actively working on the project are sharing an excel spreadsheet back and forth?

Would it work to post your column headings and a line or 2 of data just to give us an impression of what you're after?

Won't different editions cause troubles with page number references?

I don't know if it helps in any way, but I just went through ABoK looking for mystic knot mentions (http://www.knottynotions.com/mystic/nomenclature-ashley) is this the kind of thing you are looking for?  Sort of?  8)

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 07:10:45 PM »
When someone volunteers I send them a spreadsheet (without data but with headings and notes) to complete for a chapter or chapters. When this is returned the knot numbers will be in one or 2 blocks so I copy these to the master sheet which has all 3855 knot numbers in it (and by now some data). I don't know to what extent page numbers vary between editions - something I will check though before spending energy on a waste of time. If you have an email address listed (should have looked shouldn't I?) I'll send you a blank sheet with a few entries copied back from the master for illustration.  If you want to have a go please do  - just let me know which chapter you are doing to avoid duplication or if you want to just have a look at it feel free. In answer to your last question - pretty much yes.

Barry

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2009, 12:11:11 AM »
This is what i got going (but added the last 3 columns myself).

http://www.mytreelessons.com/abokChap21.JPG

Some things don't have names.  The drop down choice box is shown for Groundline.  Now, i'd think we'd categorize that as a BindinG knot (choice BG on menu, like it's brethren #1674 that i favour, or the Constrictor itself); but it's popular use is as more of a Hitch (H).

i think this level is a good place to put in page nos., seeing at this level they are all together.  Just get your chapter done, mark the page nos. for the first knot on each page down the column of the spreadsheet.  Then, copy; then paste each value down the column until you hit the next and it is rapid fire done.

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2009, 08:35:11 AM »
I see from the JPEG that you've dropped the Prime Knot column which is used to identify duplication. I'm sorry but I don't see any point in listing the same name many times unless they are variations identified as such - any slight variation in spelling will give the impression of a different knot. When this is turned into a database it will cross refer a searchg for knot #xxx back to the original entry - if a list of all entries eg for a clove hitch is required then this can easily be provided from the name or any knot number which refers to a clove hitch. Having thought about it although page numbers can easily be included I am not convinced that they add anything useful any more than they would to a dictionary. For those who have not seen the opriginal spreadsheet and notes this may not make a lot of sense I'm afraid - if anyone would like a copy please let me know but PLEASE don't amend the spreadsheet layout without reference to me or else this will become an impossible task - once an initial pass has been done through ABOK and some basic checking done then conversion to a data file will give access to the data so that it can be corrected, augmented and expanded. But as with any computer exercise there has to be standardisation (even if it proves to be wrong - it can always be corrected later).

Barry
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:11:11 AM by Sweeney »

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2009, 09:30:22 AM »
I am not trying to be secretive about this nor am I a 'control freak' (at least not the last time I looked!).  To help I have posted a copy of the blank spreadsheet onto a Wiki page so that everyone can at least see the details - but if you want a copy to complete please email me (barry@lizziemint.co.uk) so that I know who is doing what. The Wiki is www.knotindex.pbwiki.com

Barry
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:33:00 AM by Sweeney »

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2009, 10:28:20 AM »
Ummmmmm i forgot to spread open the prime column, it is still there; and i put the page etc. stuff on the end columns, where i can easily delete or hide,,

Knot Head

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2009, 11:08:13 AM »
Hi everyone. Sorry I have not been able to get back to this topic until now. I have been very busy with a client and their server for the past two weeks, or so. I have some responses to a few of the above posts. Thanks for replying by the way.

Quote
How might a group of volunteers, not conversant with the technicalities of php and sql to your level, best proceed ?  Or would everyone need to learn these systems?

Derek

To proceed we would need someone, or a team of someones who know the in's and outs of PHP and MySQL and how to program in that language. Next I would like with any other client design a basic layout that would be similar to a wiki but have the feel of a blog like word press. Then on the back end, or the administration end their would be 2 or 3 ways to log into the system,
1. Administrator - The one who would be webmastering the website itself.
2. Moderator Login - The ones who will be in charge of helping keep the site and it's contents and members in order.
3. Author Login - The ones who will be adding and editing their published work to the site.

The Administrator would be the only one who would have to be familiar with php, mysql and some html. That person would also be in charge of the backend of the system itself. The moderators and below would only have to have a little familiarity with some html because of the online word editor that I have in mind can be used in a what you see is what you get fashion, or by entering raw html code. The online word editor that I have in mind is much like the one you use to post here with one thing different. You can switch to a panel, or window that will allow you to enter your own html code so that you can customize your entry with more finite details and accuracy. The online word editor I have in mind is called TinyMCE and it is designed using JavaScript. It has the basic feel as the microsoft word interface does at a very basic level. Another good addition would be a way to upload a small photo or picture of the finished knot. Just an idea to think about.

Derek I hope that answers your questions.

Barry;
Quote
Am I right in thinking that SQL and PHP would, in an application like this, be used to front end a data file? If so are there any particular constraints on the file format? Excel is an easy to use tool for gathering data which can then be transferred to virtually any format (if necessary via an intermediate transfer format) such as dBase for example. I don't see a need for a relational database although Access could be used if that simplifies things.

Barry

PHP will act as the front end feed for the MySql that all will be able to view. File formats that can be converted, csv(Excel), txt(Text File)... Those are the best for conversion factors. MySql can interpret those files the quickest and with accuracy. dBase would not be a good one to use for the conversion since MySql can only interpret dBase from a command line interface only and not all of us can do that, nor do alot of us have Linux for that. If you use Access to build your data for submission it can then be converted to a csv file or even a .txt file. Which ever way is easiest for you and your entries to get done.

I hope that helps out Barry.

You must keep in mind that the Abook is very extensive with data and illustrations. There will be a very heavy use for something like this online for sure. PHP and MySql can handle that kind of use for years to come. I can put it this way, people will wear out before the website will. The two elements used are very complimentary to each other and work well in an industrialized atmosphere. I think that the database itself would only be as large as 5 to 6 megs, just a guestament though.

Most of what I have said here is very much on the I.T. level. But these are just suggestions for all of us to consider along our path to index the Abook. The object for me is to make that task easier and quicker by making suggestions as I have. I don't mind explaining it either. I really think this is a great idea for indexing the Abook and a very solid way to accomplish this task in an efficient way for all those working on the Abook project. I believe this could also generate funds for the Guild to promote membership on a higher level than what we have now. This can offer the member a way to collaborate with other members, it can also cause great discussions among all of us knot heads. Well just some suggestions, or ideas to consider.

Brian...   
Regards,
Brian Kidd

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2009, 11:52:12 AM »
Thanks - that was very helpful.  I have had an e-mail exchange with Mel (Webmistress) about how to structure the MySql files and I have a draft (as yet unseen by other than me as it's not yet complete). You're quite right  - a set of relational tables will give unlimited (within reason!) room for expansion and although I have never tried this with MySql I have bult some big databases in past years using dBase and Dataease.  The Excel file is to build a basic framework only (a couple of macros to clean up some issues and the data will soon be ready for the tables in MySql using CSV (which is why I asked that knot names in the sheet be separated by "-" to avoid spurious commas). I'll sort these out at the end. My only worry is that we digress too early into a discussion about what to record (if it's there and we don't need it it can be reomoved in a mouse click, if it's not there then adding data should not be too difficult) we will never finish the first pass. As an example I note that TheTreeSpyder has included the graphics used by Ashley (Anchor etc). If that is felt to be desirable then text which is meaningful would be better (eg weak) then we can continue that theme later with knots not in ABOK - but I think that if we are going down this route I would prefer to use our own terminology based on our own assessment rather than risk infringement of copyright.

 But any changes to a contributor's worksheet sheet must be done to the master copy as well so if there is information to be added to the spreadsheet ie additional columns (there is no need to remove columns until the end if at all) would forum members post here please and if there is a general consensus I will add it in (adding the data to completed Chapters can be a mini project in itself). What is the feeling about page nos? (I haven't had chance to check yet whether they vary between editions but if they do then this may be more confusing than helpful).

Barry

Barry

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2009, 02:13:46 PM »
As i remeber the page nos. are the same in editions i've seen.  We wouldn't want any infringemeant of course; and this is why i put 'quotes' seperate from notes, so that they could be handled differently or even discarded if need by.  By including the icons, i'm trying to do the author honor, by respectably noting stuff inthe quaint way he did. i thought about placing 'weak' etc. in there, but figured i'd maintain the original perspective,a nd that if allthe like stuff was named alike, it could be renamed later globally, the best way i thought was to use theauthor's own un-ambiguous terms. Though, this is a new age apporach; i wouldn't want the output to somehow be so sterile; away from the original feel and intent.

Overall, i would hope that the project increases ABoK circulation, usaeage and reflection.  There is a ton of stuff in there.  but the ominous size etc. comes across less accessible like a referance book rather than a common tool.  But, then too; that large size gives a hefty, real feel to the writings about power etc. when holding the large work, than viewing on a computer screen as it is.

Knot Head

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2009, 12:17:35 AM »
Hi all. I have attached a file that contains a sample of the MySQL database schema dump file in .txt format. This .txt file contains the MySQL commands and instructions for each table to be created.

The overall schema is very basic. I only put this here to show you how easy it would be for Mel or anyone else that should be involved in the creation process. The sample schema was done with a program called SQLyog Enterprise Edition, I also have another program I use for fast preset builds of simple websites called PHPRunner. I used these two programs to create a simple schema layout of a database.

The relations are pretty much unlimited, but has to be established at the beginning of creation. I fear that changing how the relations work later on would be a bit labor intensive even for me.
Regards,
Brian Kidd

Sweeney

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2009, 09:12:24 AM »
The text file is interesting - I don't have a Mysql GUI tool and will leave development to Mel in due course. The basic file creation is (I suppose inevitably) similar to VB, Pascal and most structured database packages I've seen. Although I don't think relationships will need changing as long as we get the design right to start with, that this is difficult is something to consider. Although I can use Excel, Word or whatever to set out out the data tables and their relationships it would be useful to find a simple graphics tool designed to do this (I used to use Visio but it's too expensive to buy personally just for that).

Barry

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Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2009, 09:23:21 PM »
Another reason to mark the chapters, would be because most the chapters from the 3rd on are for a specific range of mechanic and/ or uses.  Therefore they are already divided into groupings of likenesses that would give some definition and understanding to them as a whole as well as separately.  Perhaps we could have our own comments to offer observations of the similarities and differences, evolutions of thought from 1 lacing to the next etc. that make up a series of like lacings -already broken into chapters for us!  So, once the database was populated, it could be indexed by the name field as an index, or be indexed by number, for a mass table of contents, of the lacings; then divide at chapters.  Having a blurb of words at the chapter separations, then the numbered names below that break at 3 across or whatever could be a good thing, with about no more effort.