Author Topic: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?  (Read 18957 times)

admin

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 12:18:03 PM »
Sorted. I simply modified the subject headings on the first post in each thread.

roo

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 04:18:37 PM »
Hey Mel,

Shhhhhh, don't tell Roo that the "survival bracelet" thread (with Stormdrane's great link) came from the Practical side of the house. He's already barking orders over the bottle thread,
Quote
Don't move it.
At least he didn't use a quotation mark! Just kidding Roo.  :)


Skyout,

I don't know what you are talking about.  Shhh?  Huh?  Nor did I say a word about a bottle thread.

When I saw something about "tutorials" I thought a section of actual, separate tutorials were going to be added to the website.  I didn't expect threads to start disappearing from their proper forum as soon as they started to contain enough instructional content! ::)

Who did?

I guess if I don't want a thread to disappear from its place now, I should put in bold letters at the end of my post:  "THIS IS NOT A TUTORIAL".   >:(
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 04:19:22 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 07:53:05 PM »
Re thread-moving getting out of control,
I think its momentum is good  if we can direct it into the Chit-Chat
archives, to do the sort of culling of topic-specific threads that will
be better used if stored under the newer few (essentially 2, now
2 & a half) sub-forums, Decorative & Practical.
Such a redistribution of old Chit-Chat threads enriches the
respective Dec/Prac forums.

And is it correct (my understanding) that we are losing old threads
"off the back end" as each new thread grows?  We might better
go back in time and point to many threads worth losing first,
and somehow preserve better ones.

--dl*
====

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2009, 09:39:26 PM »
And is it correct (my understanding) that we are losing old threads
"off the back end" as each new thread grows?

No older threads should be lost. The forum still has plenty of room and, barring accidents, threads can only be deleted manually - either individually or en masse as part of a 'prune everything older than X days' command. To the best of my knowledge, there are no plans to carry out any pruning exercise.

The only minor user issue is that, as the topic archive grows, it can become harder to locate threads on specific subjects - which is why the occasional re-organisation is sometimes helpful.

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2009, 09:45:02 PM »
When I saw something about "tutorials" I thought a section of actual, separate tutorials were going to be added to the website.

An expansion of the Beginners tutorial section on the web site would be great but, in the 7(?) years that I've been looking after the site, I don't think we've had a single new tutorial submission. Placing content on a web site proper requires the author(s) permission first. Posting a link in a forum doesn't. Perhaps that's the difference?

roo

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2009, 09:48:56 PM »
The only minor user issue is that, as the topic archive grows, it can become harder to locate threads on specific subjects - which is why the occasional re-organisation is sometimes helpful.

Can you explain why you don't just hyperlink to threads of "tutorial interest" instead of uprooting and moving them?

The advantages of linking are:

1. The thread is not disrupted.
2. Skyout still has a list of tutorials.
3. A directory of posts containing links only are still searchable by title.
4. Readers don't have to monitor another area.
5. You can link to several threads about the same topic in one post.
6. Everyone is happy, presumably.

The advantages of uprooting threads are:

1.  uh.... ummmmmm......

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 09:55:43 PM by roo »
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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
Can you explain why you don't just hyperlink to threads of "tutorial interest" instead of uprooting and moving them?

A board with single post topics - each containing a link to another thread - probably wouldn't work very effectively or be as welcomed by readers. Whilst that approach can work well on a web site (e.g the list of photo albums on the main site), it is not common or accepted practice in a forum except in situations where someone simply refers to a previous thread/post rather than regurgitate the same answer again and again.

I fully appreciate that a forum is for its posters but it also has to be for its non-posting readers. Those who are new to knotting will often arrive at this forum looking for instructions or help. A board entitled Tutorials will attract their attention almost immediately and will, hopefully, provide them with the information they were looking for. Once they have that, perhaps they will stay or re-visit and become posters themselves or even join the Guild. Attracting a high level of new readers goes a long way towards bringing in new blood - something that every forum needs if it is to stay alive.

I've just noticed that 2 new tutorials have been posted on the new board - 1 today and the other 2 days ago. They comprise only 7 posts between them but have already been viewed over 500 times. I think, from a reading and promotional perspective, that board could prove to be very popular.

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The advantages of linking are:

1. The thread is not disrupted.

There should now be minimal thread disruption on other boards. As always, the worst was during the setting-up period. Now that there's a good foundation in there, people will hopefully feel more comfortable about posting their own tutorials in there.

Quote
2. Skyout still has a list of tutorials.

This wasn't carried out for any one poster but for the unseen readers - present and future - who comer here looking for answers. Obviously a tutorial board won't help everyone but it is likely to be one of the most common reasons for new people to come here in the first place. Giving them the opportunity to find what they want quickly and effectively is all part of promoting both this forum and the Guild.

Quote
3. A directory of posts containing links only are still searchable by title.

Applying that to a web site, should a home page merely be a list of links to all the other pages on the site along with a search box? I don't think such a site would be popular and I doubt you would either. Sometimes it has to be about how you present information - not just just about making sure it's in there somewhere.

Quote
4. Readers don't have to monitor another area.

Again the logical follow on is that all forums should have only a single board. For a while, this forum did. Then it grew and there was a need for a 2nd board, and a 3rd etc. This is quite normal and natural.

There is also a inbuilt facility that can help board monitoring. If you look within the Forum Stats panel on the front page of the forum, you should see a link entitled "View the most recent posts on the forum." Following that link should give you a display of all the posts across all boards that were posted since your last visit.

Quote
5. You can link to several threads about the same topic in one post.

Again not terribly user friendly. Remember that not everyone who comes here will be as IT proficient as you are. Many don't even know how to use the Back button in their browser, so following a link from 1 post to another can leave them stranded. In comparison, a board of tutorials means that they stay in roughly the same place and can jump back to the board index very easily and quickly using the  tree-menu at the top of the page.

The only time I'd suggest having a single post containing links to many other posts is if it was a Frequently Asked Questions post that was:

  • locked (ie no one could post to it)
  • sticky
  • dealt with issues relating directly to the board in which it was posted.

Personally, I don't think that tutorials and FAQS are the same thing at all.

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6. Everyone is happy, presumably.

See above. I don't think that the approach you are suggesting would work as well - especially in terms of attracting new posters/readers or from a promotional/educational perspective.

Quote
The advantages of uprooting threads are:
1.  uh.... ummmmmm......

Certain related topics are easier to find - by everyone.

roo

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2009, 11:22:06 PM »
A board with single post topics - each containing a link to another thread - probably wouldn't work very effectively or be as welcomed by readers. Whilst that approach can work well on a web site (e.g the list of photo albums on the main site), it is not common or accepted practice in a forum except in situations where someone simply refers to a previous thread/post rather than regurgitate the same answer again and again.
Neither is it accepted practice to move threads for the sole reason that they have instructional benefit.  I'm trying to strike a compromise.

Quote
I fully appreciate that a forum is for its posters but it also has to be for its non-posting readers. Those who are new to knotting will often arrive at this forum looking for instructions or help. A board entitled Tutorials will attract their attention almost immediately and will, hopefully, provide them with the information they were looking for.
I would think a simple search or asking a question in the appropriate category would be more effective and more likely.

Quote
There should now be minimal thread disruption on other boards. As always, the worst was during the setting-up period. Now that there's a good foundation in there, people will hopefully feel more comfortable about posting their own tutorials in there.
Does that mean that you'll no longer uproot properly-categorized threads soley because they passed a threshhold of instructive content?  If not, the disruption continues.

Quote
Applying that to a web site, should a home page merely be a list of links to all the other pages on the site along with a search box? .
That's exactly how a web page operates and how this forum operates.  Very little content is shown without clicking on something.

Quote
Again the logical follow on is that all forums should have only a single board.
No, the logical follow is that one category should have one board, without duplicates.  You are essentially proposing having boards of:

1. Instructions on Practical Knots
2. Practical Knots, but instruction is prohibited.

It's a horrible, unnecessary, and unnatural division.  Instruction almost inevitably comes up.

Quote
There is also a inbuilt facility that can help board monitoring. If you look within the Forum Stats panel on the front page of the forum, you should see a link entitled "View the most recent posts on the forum." Following that link should give you a display of all the posts across all boards that were posted since your last visit.
That's just it.  Many readers aren't interested in all boards or all postings. 

Quote
Remember that not everyone who comes here will be as IT proficient as you are. Many don't even know how to use the Back button in their browser, so following a link from 1 post to another can leave them stranded. In comparison, a board of tutorials means that they stay in roughly the same place and can jump back to the board index very easily and quickly using the  tree-menu at the top of the page.
People don't know how to use a "back" button, but they know to look for a forum tree?  OoooKaaaaay.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 11:43:43 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2009, 05:34:45 AM »
I've just noticed that 2 new tutorials have been posted on the new board - 1 today and the other 2 days ago.

If the Decorative folks like the split, that's fine w/me.  But I see no good reason to make a parallel
one under Practical.  I also see one recently MOVED on "thread Identify and instructions? (Rose Knots)"
which began hardly as a tutorial and arguably remains not quite that, but I guess got sufficient
instructional posting that it was felt it fit; perhaps in the future, where respondents feel that they
can answer such a post with instructions meriting the sub-forum, they'll continue their response
appropriately ("See my new thread 'How to make ...' in Tutorials"), and there won't be the not
so attractive "MOVED: ..." mark.  (At this time, with so many MOVEDs on the page, one might
wonder if the page forum was simply mis-titled entirely!)

(-;

skyout

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2009, 07:51:25 AM »
Hey Mel,

Shhhhhh, don't tell Roo that the "survival bracelet" thread (with Stormdrane's great link) came from the Practical side of the house. He's already barking orders over the bottle thread,
Quote
Don't move it.
At least he didn't use a quotation mark! Just kidding Roo.  :)


Skyout,

I don't know what you are talking about.  Shhh?  Huh?  Nor did I say a word about a bottle thread.

When I saw something about "tutorials" I thought a section of actual, separate tutorials were going to be added to the website.  I didn't expect threads to start disappearing from their proper forum as soon as they started to contain enough instructional content! ::)

Who did?

I guess if I don't want a thread to disappear from its place now, I should put in bold letters at the end of my post:  "THIS IS NOT A TUTORIAL".   >:(

Well, Roo, when you quoted Mel, I remembered the part you cut out of the quote where she specifically mentioned bottles:
Quote
I've moved all of the topics you listed to the Fancy Knotwork Tutorials board with the exception of "Netting for Glass Bottles":

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0

I hesitated to move that one as you said that it belonged in both Practical Knots and the new tutorial board. Unfortunately, I can't copy a topic so that it can be found in 2 boards at once, so I thought I'd better check before I moved it.
so what other thread you were talking about when you commandingly said:
Quote
Don't move it.
Mel has been extremely helpful and polite and doesn't deserve this kind of attitude. You are not her boss. It is a public forum, it's not your thread and you didn't even make a post in it. So you'd probably get a lot further letting her know your opinion rather than trying to boss her around. JMHO I don't know you, where you're from or anything about you other than how you portray yourself here on the forum, but this is how I feel.

As far as the "Shhhhhh", that was my attempt at humor while owning up to asking her to move the thread where I forgot to mention it came from the practical forum. Sorry, I shouldn't have been making fun of you.

Mel made this tut section on the home page after enough members were in favor of it and has been kind enough to extend the same courtesy to the Practical section by asking for responses from the members. As far as I can see no one wants one for the Practical side, all 2 of you that responded. Why do you have to give her such a hard time on this issue that has already taken effect for the members that requested it for Fancy knots? You obviously didn't voice an opinion about a Fancy tut section before when it was discussed but you have been going on and on and on for 2 pages about it now. She just asked:
Quote
If people wish to post short practical knot tutorials, or links to tutorials, would a similar sub-board help?   
She is not going to make it unless the members want it, if my understanding of the English language is correct. She didn't say, OK, the Decorative boys got one, now the Practical guys are going to get it, too. She asked politely and as a courtesy and you just keep on and on about why it's no good. Enough of the members have said it is good and they would like it for Fancy knots, so she graciously provided one. Good for her! And if no members request one for the Practical side, good for you. Believe me, you can be sure she knows you don't want one. LOL The Fancy tutorials are here and hopefully will continue to grow. I'm really sorry you don't feel the same way but that's OK as it's alright to have different opinions.

skyout

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2009, 08:21:45 AM »
I also see one recently MOVED on "thread Identify and instructions? (Rose Knots)"
which began hardly as a tutorial and arguably remains not quite that, ...
Fixed

(At this time, with so many MOVEDs on the page, one might
wonder if the page forum was simply mis-titled entirely!)
OK, you guys are just looking for things to complain about now. We have 1030 Topics to date and only 13 tutorial topics were "moved" to the new tut section. If a new member opens just one of them, they'll be able to figure out what went on. What else have you got???

Mel,

Could you kindly make it 14 by including this one from the Chit Chat section?

Chest Beckets
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=965.0



Sweeney

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2009, 09:24:56 AM »
I have been reading this but up until now I haven't been bothered about where the tutorials went - and then it struck me that there actually aren't any (OK if there is one I apologise for missing it). What is on the forum is discussions about tuts and links to sites with tuts. I don't have a problem with that but it makes sense to me to put the title and link in a Tutorials section of the main website - with perhaps a brief description (rename 'Beginners' perhaps because people with years of experience can always find something new). If I were looking for help that's the first place I would go. The discussion and link remains as is on the Forum of course.

roo

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2009, 03:56:58 PM »

Well, Roo, when you quoted Mel, I remembered the part you cut out of the quote where she specifically mentioned bottles:
  I didn't say a thing about bottles, however.  I made my comments to apply to all threads. 


Quote
so what other thread you were talking about when you commandingly said:
Don't move it.
You wrongly assumed what my tone of voice was and what my attitude was.  You can apologize for all the "attitude" I got from you about the "not her boss" crap.   >:(

Quote
Mel made this tut section on the home page after enough members were in favor of it and has been kind enough to extend the same courtesy to the Practical section by asking for responses from the members. As far as I can see no one wants one for the Practical side, all 2 of you that responded. Why do you have to give her such a hard time on this issue that has already taken effect for the members that requested it for Fancy knots? You obviously didn't voice an opinion about a Fancy tut section before when it was discussed but you have been going on and on and on for 2 pages about it now. She just asked:
If people wish to post short practical knot tutorials, or links to tutorials, would a similar sub-board help?   
She is not going to make it unless the members want it, if my understanding of the English language is correct. She didn't say, OK, the Decorative boys got one, now the Practical guys are going to get it, too. She asked politely and as a courtesy and you just keep on and on about why it's no good. Enough of the members have said it is good and they would like it for Fancy knots, so she graciously provided one. Good for her! And if no members request one for the Practical side, good for you. Believe me, you can be sure she knows you don't want one. LOL The Fancy tutorials are here and hopefully will continue to grow. I'm really sorry you don't feel the same way but that's OK as it's alright to have different opinions.

It seems that a very small group of users in the neglected "Feedback" forum decided to have a Tutorial section without much discussion at all of how it would actually work.  Then Decorative Knots gets vandalized with "MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED", and then it sounds like Mel wants to do the same here.  So I'll give my opinion.   Maybe if the forum gets an upgrade, you can choose to "Ignore User" me if you don't want to hear my opinion.  I'm still not convinced that thread confiscation won't occur here.  The Survival Bracelet thread was already moved, but that may or may not have been because Mel thought it was too decorative-oriented, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

I wish more specifics were revealed publicly and asking around done ahead of time.  It could have avoided a lot of irritation.  This is a slow forum, and some users don't visit for days at a time, and many only visit one board.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:02:41 PM by roo »
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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2009, 05:09:21 PM »
Then Decorative Knots gets vandalized with "MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED",

I was looking at those 'Moved' notices last night and wondering whether it would be better to get rid of them. Normally, it's considered polite to leave behind a note when moving a topic but I can see how it could be extremely annoying when a number of threads have been moved.

Would people like me to remove those notices?

In future, should a 'Moved' notice be left behind or not? It is a simple option that can be set to 'Yes' or 'No' during each move, so if people could decide what they would prefer, I'll do my best to abide by that.

Quote
and then it sounds like Mel wants to do the same here.

Not 'wanted'. Merely asked because I thought it was only polite to offer the same option here also.

Quote
The Survival Bracelet thread was already moved, but that may or may not have been because Mel thought it was too decorative-oriented, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

I'm in no position to decide what is decorative and what isn't. You're the knot experts - not me. I was simply asked to move it and did so.


roo

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Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2009, 03:53:54 PM »
In future, should a 'Moved' notice be left behind or not? It is a simple option that can be set to 'Yes' or 'No' during each move, so if people could decide what they would prefer, I'll do my best to abide by that.

Since my linking-to-threads compromise has recieved resistance from you, how about this:  Instead of uprooting properly-placed threads, have people roll up their sleeves and compile and distill pertinent information into a new post. 

Yes, it takes a little effort, but it is the polite and respectful alternative to confiscating properly-placed threads.

P.S.  This is not an endorsement of the Tutorial Board idea.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 04:20:56 PM by roo »
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