Author Topic: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot  (Read 22840 times)

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3939
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 09:14:52 PM »

 [ / q u o t e ]
(Although, to some extent, the torquer <<===  of what some
have called the "twirly flop" method leads to an orientation of the eye legs that
might have benefit.)

If I understand you correctly Dan, by "orientation of the eye legs"
(whether the legs are oriented crossed or parallel to themselves),
you can actually change the orientation through 360 deg. by rotating the wrist
in either direction when you pull the eye loop and let the rope run through the other hand.

Alpineer, you should EDIT your prior post to add in the '[/quote]' end to my words,
and, while you're at it, correct my typo in 'torquer'--which I just did in original.

I don't think that rotation is so free, but one can arrange the cross to be
with legs on either side, in addition to abutting.  This is likely going to
come with torsion, one way or the other; but given some method(s),
torsion leads the orientation to be just so--YMMV on circumstance.
As your method has the eye-bight just drawn up through the loops
from a presumably untorsioned free-hanging state, it will naturally
form the *abutted* version; in the "twirly-flop" method, the twisting
can build and induce a crossed-legs version (and maybe the only
reason Wright & Magowan specified that was in recognition of it
and a go-with-the-flow rationale vs. ending up with torsion in the
eye!?  How well, or whether, the legs will remain so crossed, if ...,
can hinge on the exact form and loading and thus whether the
S.Part draws to hold it vs. undo it.

--dl*
====

ps:  Good luck w/car & computer --I'm too well & recently familiar with such things.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 07:25:33 PM by Dan_Lehman »

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 01:59:26 PM »
Twist is an important part of each knots structure and can be seen as part of a knots 'signature' - its essence, so to speak.

Torsion is the unresolved twist created by the tying process.

Alpineers method of winding around the hand, allows the required whole turn of twist to be resolved out into the 'working end' or if in line, the 'working line'.  The pull and fold does not induce any further twisting so the final knot is free from torsion.

Twirly flop, by contrast, tends to concentrate about a half turn of torsion into the final loop causing it to dress with a twist in response to this retained torsion.

I doubt we would ever be able to quantify the impact of these differences, but from a purist standpoint, the Alpineer method and the 'round the hand and cast off' method are preferable because they are less likely to leave any torsion within the knot.

Derek

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2009, 09:13:02 AM »
[ / q u o t e ]
 

I don't think that rotation is so free, but one can arrange the cross to be
with legs on either side, in addition to abutting.  This is likely going to
come with torsion, one way or the other; but given some method(s),
torsion leads the orientation to be just so--YMMV on circumstance.
As your method has the eye-bight just drawn up through the loops
from a presumably untorsioned free-hanging state, it will naturally
form the *abutted* version; in the "twirly-flop" method, the twisting
can build and induce a crossed-legs version (and maybe the only
reason Wright & Magowan specified that was in recognition of it
and a go-with-the-flow rationale vs. ending up with torsion in the
eye!?  How well, or whether, the legs will remain so crossed, if ...,
can hinge on the exact form and loading and thus whether the
S.Part draws to hold it vs. undo it.

--dl*
====

ps:  Good luck w/car & computer --I'm too well & recently familiar with such things.


Yes, actually, rotation is free and easy up to 180 deg. in either direction, but only one direction at a time. When pulling the 'Roundturn' to form the 'Eye Bight', orientation of the 'working' hand determines the direction of "free rotation". So, the HYBRID METHOD is unique in that all three 'Eye' variants can be formed (with ease). Note that 'pulling and rotation' should be done simultaneously to achieve more consistent results.

Car issue is resolved. Computer still giving grief.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 01:20:57 AM by alpineer »

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2009, 09:32:40 AM »
Twist is an important part of each knots structure and can be seen as part of a knots 'signature' - its essence, so to speak.

Torsion is the unresolved twist created by the tying process.

Alpineers method of winding around the hand, allows the required whole turn of twist to be resolved out into the 'working end' or if in line, the 'working line'.  The pull and fold does not induce any further twisting so the final knot is free from torsion.

Twirly flop, by contrast, tends to concentrate about a half turn of torsion into the final loop causing it to dress with a twist in response to this retained torsion.

I doubt we would ever be able to quantify the impact of these differences, but from a purist standpoint, the Alpineer method and the 'round the hand and cast off' method are preferable because they are less likely to leave any torsion within the knot.

Derek

Good analyzing Derek. I find it interesting (even exciting) that this method has such flexibility, being able to tie even the 'crossed legs' versions with a simple twist of the wrist in either direction as the Roundturn is pulled to form Eye Bight. It's a method ready for the future if anyone should be able to quantify the differences. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:01:39 PM by alpineer »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3939
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2009, 09:43:25 PM »
Good analyzing Derek. I find it interesting (even exciting) that this method has such flexibility,
being able to tie even the 'crossed legs' versions with a simple twist of the wrist in either direction
as the Roundturn is pulled to form Eye Bight.

Hmmm, here's where I differ:  if you are twisting the round turn,
you put torsion into it, same as the other method--and that has
to go somewhere.  If one simply forms the initial wraps W/O the
natural twisting onto the had, the one connected wrap should
form a fig.8 from the torsion.

Some play with all these ways can shed light,
but I've fallen flat on my face from the edge of my seat anticipating
the next interesting installment from A_S Down Under!

 :)

ps:  Meanwhile, there is on-going pursuit of some of the origins of
the Lineman's Loop (aka "Butterfly" aka "Alpine B."):  CLDay cites
a 1914 (15?) work by Burger, and we might be able to get some
kind of copy of this.  [AKS, 4th , #81 p.80]  This precedes the
Wright & Magowan publication; Day cites Burger as reporting that
the knot was used by linemen, esp. telephone linemen; it would
be great to find some prior literature from their employer(s).

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2009, 11:52:41 PM »
The Hybrid Method video is on Youtube now. Search Alpine Butterfly Knot and you will find it. There is no spoken instruction, but I wanted to get something up.

Alpineer

edit: see next post for direct link
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 12:52:28 AM by alpineer »

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2009, 05:17:46 PM »
Here's the direct link to a more recent video (edit Jan.28/18).

alpineer

https://youtu.be/DYGdvL9-P30
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:53:26 PM by alpineer »

ray

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2009, 11:08:42 AM »
while fiddling around with this knot i worked out how to tie it with the end of the rope so you can tie the loop into e.g. a harness and also using this method, make it into a friction hitch for my work which is tree surgery.

Benboncan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 43
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2010, 09:33:40 PM »
alpineer,

Thank you for this method of tying the Alpine butterfly, it is easy,elegant and intuitive. Most of all I find it the easiest method to adjust the length of loop to suit.

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2010, 02:27:28 AM »
Here's the direct link to the video.

Alpineer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4

That's the method I use.  I find this method naturally dresses the Butterfly how I like it.  Also, this method makes the knot size easily adjustable.  Also, 2 loops and 3 loops are fun and easy.  Just add turns around the hand during the initial part.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 02:34:49 AM by knot4u »

Andy

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 134
  • Five Knots a Day keeps Alzheimer's Away
    • My Selection of Most Useful Knots
Thumb Hook Method
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2012, 07:28:17 AM »
Old thread, but maybe something new?

Alpineer, after searching the forum, I couldn't find that you had posted your video for your even more recent method of tying a butterfly, your "thumb hook" method, even faster than your "hybrid method". In my opinion this thumb hook method deserves a Nobel prize. Once you play with it, it flows much easier that the video would suggests, somewhat similarly to the twist-coil method of tying a constrictor that Derek introduced me to some years ago.
To get the hang of it, aside from the form shown on the video, I recommend trying with just the index finger (instead of the palm) and the thumb. This will also show how easily you can control the size of the loop.

Within a few minutes, I could tie it in seconds, without looking at the rope.
Magical!
Here's your video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qAENib1wuY

This video really caps the year for me as far as knots are concerned, I'm ready for 2013.
THUMBS UP

Apologies if this has already been discussed and somehow eluded my search efforts.

Btw the hook action somehow reminds me of the "Sofia method" of tying a constrictor, which I was really proud of for the five minutes until Derek introduced me to the coil-twist. But that's the only similarity, I never use the Sofia method, while your thumb hook method is brilliant, I'll be using it all the time.
my selection of most useful knots

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2020, 08:55:43 AM »
Hi All, 
        Topic: Adjustable guy line. post by Olegan67.  link ; https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6610.0
        I found Mr. Creozin have a video, how to tie Alpine Butterfly Knot. exactly same tying method as The Hybride Tying Method by Alpineer.
        One was in the year 2012 the other was year 2015.
       
        See these limks;
        Австрийский проводник и бурлацкая петля.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUUT0cpML8
        Alpine Butterfly Knot - The Hybrid Tying Method  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYGdvL9-P30
        謝謝 alanleeknots

Keystoner

  • On Walkabout
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2020, 01:28:30 PM »
Yes but Alan, no method is as efficient as yours where you hang the line from your hand, flick your wrist, and presto, the Alpine Butterfly is formed.  ;)

Gordias

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2020, 03:29:46 PM »
Here's another variation. 

I found this when checking youtube to see if my variation on the "double twist" was new.
I like this method because it's easy to tie the knot without looking.   
I also use this to tie the butterfly bend, though it took a while to figure out how to make it work well for the bend.

Note - the interesting part of the video is from 3:05 to 3:35.   
FWIW I don't finish it exactly the same way - I pull the loop away from my body rather than across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72_xyeN8pnM

Another similar approach.  I won't be switching though - it doesn't look like I'd like to tie the bend that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV39a-EjwB8