Author Topic: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot  (Read 22140 times)

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
« on: January 20, 2009, 06:44:06 AM »
A few years ago I discovered a new and a more practical way to tie the Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot.

The original worded description of the tying process has been edited to hopefully allow for easier understanding:

Right-handers version,
1) Wrap the line around your left hand in the clockwise direction until the Working Part passes over the Standing Part two times, forming a Loop on the hand with an "X" shaped Crossing Part underneath. 2) Position your Working Hand between the two crossed lines and draw the Loop down and under the Crossing Part to the other side of the crossed lines. Step 2 lets you easily adjust the size of the Loop, which becomes the "Eye" of the knot. 3) Pass the end of the Loop through the "hole" above Crossing Part to complete the tying process. 4) Dress and set the knot.

I call this way of tying the Alpine Butterfly Knot the "Hybrid" Method, with reference to each of the key component forms used in the traditional ABK tying methods, i.e. the Loop and the "X" Crossing.

The Hybrid Method offers features of particular value to mountaineers:
>ergonomic efficiency (each step in the tying process flows easily and smoothly into the next)
>easy eyeloop sizing
>speed of tying (less than 5 sec.)
>the knot can be tied with gloves or mitts on
>the knot can be tied in the dark with ease and confidence
>easy to dress the knot and give a neat appearance
>easy to learn and remember

The Hybrid Method also makes it easy to tie the Double Loop and Triple Loop versions of the Alpine Butterfly Knot.
   
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 10:14:08 PM by alpineer »

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 05:19:42 PM »
Hi Alpineer,

Sounds good, but sorry, you lost me.

Would you mind explaining the moves in more detail, words are a very poor medium for this sort of thing.

Derek

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 06:32:26 PM »
Hi Derek,

You are so right that words alone are a poor medium for figuring out how to tie knots. I hope soon to post a link with photos or video that will make it easier to learn this method.

In the meantime:
The more well known methods of tying the Alpine Butterfly involve either wrapping a rope or cord around your hand to form two Loops, or twisting a Bight to form two "X" shaped Crossing Parts. In the case of the "Hybrid Method" you wrap the line around your hand to make one Loop AND one "X" shaped Crossing. Now you have a Roundturn on your hand with an "X" Crossing underneath. Note that the Loop and the "X" Crossing must be of the same handedness. From between the two crossed lines under the Crossing Part is where you reach up and grab the loop of the Roundturn. Pull the Loop down to form a Bight and take it through the hanging lines. Then feed the Bight through the hole bounded by the top of the Roundturn and the crossed lines. Tighten the knot and you have now formed the Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot.
Once you get it, it's like riding a bicycle. You'll never forget how to do it.

Hope this helps Derek. Good luck and please let me know how you make out. I would greatly appreciate any comments you may have.

 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 02:23:02 AM by alpineer »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Butterfly Loop
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 07:00:16 PM »
I think I was able to make it work, but I don't know if it was the way you intended.  I'm not sure it was easier or more memorable than either of the two methods of tying shown here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 04:52:33 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 07:55:27 PM »
GOT IT,

I looked for how bringing the first line forwards (in the two loops method) made the crossing you spoke of, then I rotated this around my hand to see how it worked on the heel of my palm.

At first I found it a little clumsy, I preferred the ability (in the two loops method) to hook the loop through with my thumb, but then as I tried pulling out a larger loop, I moved into handing the loop into my hand instead of just hooking it with my thumb, then suddenly the whole method flows like a dream, especially the ability to pull out to any size loop you want which is no where as easy or tidy with the two loop method.

I'm hooked, and will happily teach this method in future, now we need a video of how to do it.  Any takers?

Thank you alpineer for bringing it to us.  It reminds me that it is just as important (if not more so) to have as good a library of methods as we would build of knots.

Derek
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 08:14:17 PM by DerekSmith »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Butterfly Loop
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 10:54:07 PM »
I think I was able to make it work, but I don't know if it was the way you intended.  I'm not sure it was easier or more memorable than either of the two methods of tying shown here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html

On second thought, maybe I don't have it.  Let's be careful here, everyone.  I keep getting a false look-alike version of a Butterfly Loop or Lineman's loop that is discussed in this thread (half-hitch loop):

http://tinyurl.com/7qofgw

Unfortunately, the .pdf link of interest is defunct.

Update: found the new .pdf link, (knot #18):
http://www.cs-caving-association.com/CSCA%20Publications/Knots%20A5.pdf

Other discussion of interest:  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1892.0
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 05:43:11 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 04:04:42 AM »
Roo,

There are two possible ways of crossing, or twisting, the the two lines hanging from your non-working (drone) hand. When you cross them the wrong way you get the false look-alike version. Fortunately, the correct way just feels right once you have tried both ways. In fact, I suggest that one should try both ways to experience the difference between the two ways.

Keep trying and you will get it right.
   

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 06:39:17 AM »
Hi Derek,

Glad you GOT IT and thank you for comments. They are appreciated.

I have uploaded a sequential photo set on Flickr. My username in the "People" search field is ursusgummis. The set is entitled "A Better Way To Tie The Alpine Butterfly".

Cheers

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1838
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 07:33:24 AM »

I have uploaded a sequential photo set on Flickr. My username in the "People" search field is ursusgummis. The set is entitled "A Better Way To Tie The Alpine Butterfly".

Thank you for the images.  That clarifies things.  I'm sure you find the method easy for you, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  However, if I were to study the method of tying for some time, I still think that I'd be likely to forget it even after a week.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 07:35:31 AM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 08:42:42 AM »
Thanks for your input Roo.
Just for fun, imagine if you were on a glacier at night in a blinding snow storm with a pair of boxing gloves on your hands and desperately needed to tie into the middle of your rope with an alpine butterfly ;D. It can actually be done using the "Flying Method". 

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 09:36:54 AM »

I have uploaded a sequential photo set on Flickr. My username in the "People" search field is ursusgummis. The set is entitled "A Better Way To Tie The Alpine Butterfly".

Thank you for the images.  That clarifies things.  I'm sure you find the method easy for you, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  However, if I were to study the method of tying for some time, I still think that I'd be likely to forget it even after a week.

Damn memory failure Roo, I think there is a medical term for it - but I just can't remember it right now, but give me a while, it might come to me.

Alpineer - you are clever spotting this method of tying, but "standing on a glacier, in a blizzard, in the dark, wearing boxing gloves, and you need to tie into your rope  !!!    Clever, but utterly mad.

Welcome

Derek

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 09:44:15 AM »
That's me.
Thanks for the welcome Derek.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 09:36:49 PM »
A few years ago I discovered a new and a more practical way of tying the Alpine Butterfly Loop:

In part to change the line-up of too-long-stable threads (as we wait in great eagerness
for more from Agent_Smith, Down Under !!), and as I've not responded to this thread,
let me say BRAVO!  This indeed seems a good easy significant step to making the
tying of this knot simple(r).  (Although, to some extent, the torque of what some
have called the "twirly flop" method leads to an orientation of the eye legs that
might have benefit.)  It is easy also to size the eye in this method on the initial
wrap.  --very clean, simple, which counts much, yes!

 :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 08:32:32 PM by Dan_Lehman »

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 09:51:10 AM »
The premise for discovering this method of tying is this: putting a LOOP is the same as putting a TWIST in the rope. I realized then, if one of the wraps (in the "wraps on the hand method") was replaced with a twist (as in the other well known method), an Alpine Butterfly Knot could also be tied. A "HYBRID" Butterfly if you will. ::)

Soon, I discovered other variant methods, two of which make tying the "bend version" of the Alpine Butterfly (aka Strait Bend) particularly easy. And although these methods are not difficult to execute, they are rather difficult to convey in words alone. So I will soon (tomorrow) put a video on Youtube.
Quote
(Although, to some extent, the torque of what some
have called the "twirly flop" method leads to an orientation of the eye legs that
might have benefit.)

If I understand you correctly Dan, by "orientation of the eye legs" (whether the legs are oriented crossed or parallel to themselves), you can actually change the orientation through 360 deg. (180 deg. in either direction) by rotating the R. wrist as you pull the eye loop.
     

   
 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 02:15:29 AM by alpineer »

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 04:05:53 PM »
 
Update; I'm having car and computer problems.
The knot tying video has been down-prioritized until these issues are resolved. I will inform when it has been uploaded.

Apologies,
alpineer
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:47:52 PM by alpineer »