Author Topic: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes  (Read 146040 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2008, 08:10:59 PM »
Having tied and played with all of the variations illustrated, I am leaning towards the last image - the 720 degree variant.
:o         ???       :o
Quote
Why? Because:
[1] It has 3 rope diameters which are encircled and gripped by the loops
[2] It It has double loops acting to encircle and grip the bight
[3] The collar describes a larger radius
[4] The tail parallels the Spart leaving the eye clear
[5] It is simply an extension of ABoK 1013 and improves upon it (in my view)
[6] The structure exhibits a degree of symmetry and compactness and also appears to be secure and stable

I would of course welcome opinions/feedback...

I'm absolutely amazed/appalled:  that you can HAVE the EBDB, and yet go on to produce and prefer
the grotesque derivative "#1013 720deg" variant!?  --incredible!

Firstly, your presentation should orient all knots the same (re SPart turn/handedness)
which will make comparisons easier and surer.  Currently, you have reversed handedness.
And there is still the problem with some "rear/front" view labeling--540 is *wrong*.  Yes, it entails
the most work--as it's the most annotated/labeled--, but starting the series off correctly with a
nice "FRONT view" for the Common Blw #1010 will set the tone & orientation basis.
(You could also anticipate some criticism (pretty much just baseless hearsay/rumor) of the
Cowboy Bwl (#1034.5) by having a ready image of it and 1010 ring-loaded, and indicating
what part (the end) will often slip out in the 1010 form abnormally loaded--that should shut
a few mouths (maybe).

Secondly, your #1013 variant is more varied than you state in that it is a "Cowboy" (1034.5)
collar direction; that could lead someone to a bit of confusion.  This change was made presumably
to have the end finish adjacent to the SPart.

Re criterion #2, that begs a So what?  challenge.  I found it quite interesting to see in the cited
(above) Dave Richards testing that in the low-elongation-rope cases (12.5 & 7mm), the DOUBLE
Sheet Bend slipped (but not in the 10.5mm dynamic rope)--and for the 12.5mm rope, the single
SB did NOT!?  This goes to question the efficacy of the double turn, which I'd have thought would
improve security.  (It also begs the question of What-form-of-sheet-bend?, sadly--I don't think that
I found out (yet).)  In any case, for THIS eyeknot, given the follow-on securing of the end, and the
materials, I don't think that one should put much weight on this.   (Note, before Spydey chimes in
with relationships between ... , that the eyeknot (normally loaded) tensions the nipping loop from
both sides, whereas in a sheet bend, the end-side is untensioned, just nipped--significant re security.)

Re #3:  how is this at all beneficial, vs. detrimental, even?!
--detrimental in that with a larger collar there is more material to all knot deformation at high loads.
And I think that it's partly illusory in regards to the stuffing of the end back through it (and having,
at the point of setting, some sense of added tightness):  for, on serious loading, the end will likely
swing around behind (in proper "front" perspective) the SPart, and the looseness of the enlarged
collar will lead to an inferior orientation of the nub--SPart then going too directly into the nipping
turn vs. pulling over the dble.turns into it (for note that the other end of this dbl.turn coil is going
to be farther away and trying to capsize it--SPart pulling back in opp. direction, to flip ... ).

Re #4, well, big whoop.  One can do that with the EBDB.  One can do that in a better way with
the Water Bwl (or should we better say, "The Clove Bwl"--as it seems there's been an unjustified
shift of the postion of the added HH/turn from removed to adjacent by authors not well advised!),
taking the end back towards the SPart through the original nipping loop.  A clear eye  seems a
pretty trivial distinction to me, for many uses.  The EBDB leaves the eye clear, too, even w/o
pointing the end SPartwards; there are various ways of dressing ... .

Re #5, no, as noted above, it is not simply an extension (any more than it is of 1034.5).
But I sense that you hope to buy credibility sort of ad hominen  vis-a-vis such a comparison.
Big whoop, again.  Now, EBDB  **is** such a quite simple extension (though, it too can be tied
in a Cowboy orientation)--one repeated tucking of the end (and one can choose inside or outside
of the collar, for that.   But the EBDB  binds the central nipping dbl. loop at the one point
where the binding has sure, lasting effect (in the materials of concern here); "720" does not.


Finally, re #7, as Roo noted, we are some distance from compactness now.  Not that it's unheard
of to add a Strangle tie-off for the Fig.8 even (oh, yes, a flame debate that flares up every so often
between climbers), which adds to consumption.  I have some inkling that using a variety of knots
to tie off --and consequently sharply bending the rope at different places-- might less quickly
degrade the strength of the rope ends--"the sharp end".

If you want efficiency, the Lehman8--D.Britton linked image now lost--would do well.

"Do Not Pass Go" is the old board-game saying I'll lay on the latest innovation.  You have much
better & detailed hints above to explore, really.

As for Roo's "what you think '3 rope diameters which are encircled and gripped by the loops' ... actually achieves" ,
it has pretty obvious implications for what must happen for the knot to come untied--that the end
must go back out of the loops the extra time, and in cases to repeat this  (to come completely out)
it must then go in the opposite direction, which gives some assurance that it won't happen
(and there should be a longer, flapping end to notice, for a climber and her tie-in, anyway).
The presumption  re strength is, yes, just that; but it seems plausible, though I note some
aspects that might be unfavorable (re friction); also, OnRope1.com had a MythBuster that
challenges this notion--YMMV.

--dl*
====

agent_smith

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2008, 09:26:04 PM »
Thanks for feedback,

New version is uploaded... the reversed image is corrected. Modification of the description of the 720 degree variant is also added...yes it is bulky.

I only stated that I was 'leaning' toward the 720 cowboy variant - not an outright declaration of confidence.

Yes, I like the EBDB version - but need to do something with the tail - like a Yosemite finish or similar. Will work on it and take photos for you.

Please advise if there are still further glaring errors to correct!


agent smith

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2008, 08:23:35 PM »
only stated that I was 'leaning' toward the 720 cowboy variant - not an outright declaration of confidence.

But that is, still, leaning towards something unappealing and away from something good.

Quote
Yes, I like the EBDB version - but need to do something with the tail - like a Yosemite finish or similar.

I don't see such "need"--the remarks about a clean eye are not compelling to me,
especially for the applications of kernmantle ropes, which is the main context here
--where, historically, people have been tying "back-up"/"safety" knots ON THE EYE legs,
hardly the model of such clean-liness!

But, if you insist, the "End-Binding" wrap of the tail can be made to run diagonally across
(under, from the (proper!) "front" perspective) the end-side eye-leg and so emerge just
outside of the eye, but still pointing generally eye-wards vs. SPartwards.  (And it should
be noted that this path can be used vice the popular one to make a YoBowl that cannot
deform on setting into that On Rope (1st ed.)-Chap.3-cover-photo peculiarity.)
(And this End-Bound wrap can go either inside or outside of the collar on its turn.)


And I'll reiterate:  presenting the proper aspect (my urged "front" view) of the Bowline
from the start is a big step to making clear it and all the variations of it--all of the various
securing extensions that are done are much more clearly understood from viewing the
knots from this perspective (as it is pretty easy to comprehend the course of the
end's/bight's legs, and the pure turns/wraps in a Clove-Bwl ("Water") or Dbl.Bwl).
--along with the much better quick-tie behavior (i.e., support of the unhandled SPart
by the handled SPart-side eye leg after the initial capsizing of the Overhand maneuvre).

 :)

agent_smith

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2008, 02:49:06 PM »

But, if you insist, the "End-Binding" wrap of the tail can be made to run diagonally across
(under, from the (proper!) "front" perspective) the end-side eye-leg and so emerge just
outside of the eye, but still pointing generally eye-wards vs. SPartwards.


Will try to tie this variation and photograph it.

And I'll reiterate:  presenting the proper aspect (my urged "front" view) of the Bowline
from the start is a big step to making clear it and all the variations of it--all of the various
securing extensions that are done are much more clearly understood from viewing the
knots from this perspective


I am happy to do as you request - but I must confess that I am unclear as to exactly how you want me to orient the knots. I'm saying I'm confused...can you give me clear instructions as to the correct orientation! (its very late at night where I am at present and I can't think clearly...got to sign off for now.


agent_smith

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2008, 10:46:11 PM »
I am happy to do as you request - but I must confess that I am unclear as to exactly how you want me to orient the knots.
I'm saying I'm confused...can you give me clear instructions as to the correct orientation!

1)  FLIP THE ORIGINAL BOWLINE (1010) OVER--show opposite face as the "Front".
(Yes, this is the opposite to what is commonly done; we have common difficulty with this knot
so let's get rid of the common confusion and show the proper perspective.
You want to see how that "hitch"/"loop" crosses itself; the paths of the bight parts are
easily enough understood and so can be more hidden.)

2) KEEP ALL OF THE VARIATIONS IN THE SAME ORIENTATION VIS-A-VIS THE STANDING PART.
So, if the SPart makes its nipping loop (and crosses UNDER itself in going into the eye-leg) with
the flow going to the LEFT (crossing point on left), say, keep that orientation for all knots,
and thereby it will be easier to recognized each variation's differences.

As a right-hander, I find it natural in TYING-IN TO A HARNESS (so, eye at me, SPart leading
away) to hold the END in my right hand; doing the quick-tie maneuvre by coming UNDER
the SPart, then leftwards-over-eye-leg-down-and-pull-away-rightwards to capsize a turn
into the SPart, I arrive at the above-specified orientation:  SPart flows in OVER its crossing
point, exits to my/viewer's left, and returns on the right side to complete the knot.

Thanks for all the good work in making images.
Would like to also see one of the specified alternative "Janus"-like ones (where the end
goes around both legs before tucking back into the nipping center).  (A Cowboy Bwl version
will have end on right side, so pass it around the legs by going UNDER them rightwards
and back up over and down through the center, making a nice same-coming&going variant.)

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 06:51:14 PM by Dan_Lehman »

agent_smith

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 03:05:34 PM »
Am still working on some new images...sorry for the delay Dan.

Christmas is hectic at the moment and the weather and lighting conditions have not been favourable (I take the photos outdoors to get the best results due to my camera limitations).

Hope to post another version of the bowlines tomorrow.

Will eagerly await IGKT and Dan Lehman's feedback.



agent smith

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 05:02:50 PM »
i first saw the slip knot method described in a rescue scenario.  Victim is on side of sheer cliff face, and holding on with 1 hand.  Line is lowered from overhead cliff or copter, victim makes slip knot with 1 hand and lets it hold self.  Then draws tail around self, then reeves thru slipknot; folds back and pinches off to self.  At this point, even if they fall, as long as they keep that pinch of Bitter to itself (through slip), the lacing should close and lock safely.

i thought of this because of your rescue  scenario.  But also, it has become my favorite way of making a Round Turn (double) or Clove(Water) especially.  The 2 part way of forming, can make it a preset and finish quickly type of strategy too.  This can be especially useful if someone is bringing Bitter End around tree, hitching up to a truck pull, stretching line to a point to tie off quickly, evne for same in forming Sheetbend on fly etc.  The slip/noose after formed can also be set aside or hung and keep well until precise , moment needed.

Fairlead

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2008, 06:46:41 PM »

Will eagerly await IGKT and Dan Lehman's feedback.





Agent Smith - Have you written to the Guild for feedback?  This is an open forum NOT the voice of the Council of the IGKT - and currently only one member who uses this forum (Squarerigger) is a member of the Council so please be sure that you do not quote anything said in this thread as being from the IGKT.

Gordon



Dan_Lehman

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2008, 12:54:42 AM »
Line is lowered from overhead cliff or copter, victim makes slip knot with 1 hand and lets it hold self.

Were the report given by Ashely, it would not be a "slip knot" that got (first-) tied,
but a simple, Overhand noose.

--dl*
====

DerekSmith

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2008, 11:22:19 AM »

Will eagerly await IGKT and Dan Lehman's feedback.


Agent Smith - Have you written to the Guild for feedback?  This is an open forum NOT the voice of the Council of the IGKT - and currently only one member who uses this forum (Squarerigger) is a member of the Council so please be sure that you do not quote anything said in this thread as being from the IGKT.

Gordon


I apologise to other posters for hijacking this thread slightly, but it is an important issue which I feel should be made straight away.

Gordon, I think you have your world view a little upside down.  The Council is not the IGKT, the MEMBERS are the IGKT.  The Council are a group of volunteers to whom we the members are deeply indebted for running the administration of the IGKT, but the heart, the muscle, the conscience and the voice of the IGKT is that of the members and those closely associated with us.

To hear the 'voice' of the IGKT where do you need to go?

Certainly you will hear the voice at the AGM and EGMs,  you will also hear it at the local branch meetings every month or so and every venue where members are present to promote knots and the IGKT.  One of the most prominent places to find the voice of the IGKT is of course through our Knotting Matters monthly publication, particularly as it better reflects the internationality of the membership than most of the physical meetings can achieve.

But by a long long way, the best place to go to speak to the IGKT is here, on its Forum.  It is fully international, it is 24/7, it reflects a significant membership presence and through the course of a year it covers massively more knotting issues and aspects than probably all of the other avenues put together.

You are right that Lindsey Philpott, our new Editor is the only Guild Officer to regularly post here - that is very much to his credit.  But the other Officers are busy people and we should not criticise them for not posting here as well as doing the jobs for the Guild which they have so generously volunteered to serve.  But that does not change one jot the fact that if you want to speak to the International Guild of Knot Tyers, the very best place to do it is HERE.

DerekSmith
Member of the IGKT

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2008, 01:48:17 PM »
Line is lowered from overhead cliff or copter, victim makes slip knot with 1 hand and lets it hold self.

Were the report given by Ashely, it would not be a "slip knot" that got (first-) tied,
but a simple, Overhand noose.

--dl*
====

It seems to me that whether it is a Noose or Slip; would depend on if it's use would be to choke(mercilessly) or release.  Hear; it is in fact maid to slip out, but in doing so capture in an 'inverted noose' or slip(?)!  But, by any name, the mechanics the same.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 06:00:20 PM »
It seems to me that whether it is a Noose or Slip; would depend on if it's use would be to choke(mercilessly) or release.
Hear; it is in fact maid to slip out, but in doing so capture in an 'inverted noose' or slip(?)!
But, by any name, the mechanics the same.

Eye herd, but herd mentality kneed knot rule:  cf. p.14 ABOK , #43, 44
--it's #43 that ewe wont fore beau line cap sizement!

 ;)

agent_smith

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2008, 11:27:40 PM »
Version 1.4 is up for review...

Go here: www.paci.com.au/IGKT/Bowlines.pdf

And yes, I realise that any comments made herein do not constitute a formal endorsement by the IGKT.

Dan, I hope I got the photos right this time...I am trying but its not an easy process.

I still need to take some photos of a janus variant you mentioned but need more direction as to exactly how you want it tied.

I am also unsure about some of the EBDB variants... A quick attempt of mine is shown in figures 16 & 17 in that I took an educated guess with the tail (yosemite finish).

But, if you insist, the "End-Binding" wrap of the tail can be made to run diagonally across
(under, from the (proper!) "front" perspective) the end-side eye-leg and so emerge just
outside of the eye, but still pointing generally eye-wards vs. SPartwards.


Still to tie and photograph this variant...

And I want to close in on the best candidate (ie ideal) knot for mission critical life support applications - am running out of time for this project. Figure 12 & 13 also seem reasonable to me.

You'll also note that my water bowline (fig eight) varies slightly from Roos... in trying to present the correct image perspective, I stumbled on this form...




agent smith
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 11:38:42 PM by agent_smith »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2008, 09:17:38 AM »
And yes, I realise that any comments made herein do not constitute a formal endorsement by the IGKT.

Frankly, I can't imagine what or how such a thing could come to be.
But that's a separate thread.

Quote
I still need to take some photos of a janus variant you mentioned but need more direction as to exactly how you want it tied.

The words are above; they should suffice; take them slowly, and if you reach
a problem, let's note THAT point of issue.  It's a pretty simple thing, after all.
No Yosemite for me.

Quote
But, if you insist, the "End-Binding" wrap of the tail can be made to run diagonally across
(under, from the (proper!) "front" perspective) the end-side eye-leg and so emerge just
outside of the eye, but still pointing generally eye-wards vs. SPartwards.

In the normal EBDB, the tail simply continues up and around ... ;
re the above, the tail crosses behind the other side of the bight it makes (the other
leg), and THEN goes around, and so encompasses that leg also.  And while the
finish isn't forced outside of the eye area (your goal--"clean eye"), it rather naturally
is pointed that way, and on hauling it tight (which one needs to do esp. w/stretchy
rope, which is going to shrink in diameter on heavy loading), you'll further set it
into a pointing-to-side-of-eye position.  (And, yes, the same can be done for 1010,
w/o any end-wrap, as a way of anticipating the draw of the SPart on the tail, which
will pull it up out of the eye and a bit to one side.)  Otherwise, the end-wrap can
be taken sort of down through the collar--i.e., just on the other side of itself in
making its "end-bound" turn--and will then be more forced to exit to the side.


Quote
And I want to close in on the best candidate (ie ideal) knot for mission critical life support applications

"Mission-critical life support" has an SAR ring to it, which to my mind stands in
some distinction/contrast to a rockclimber's tying in--which, yes, is critical
to his mission, but ... .  Recall that seemingly of rather recent popularity or at
least consideration is the "re-threaded" bowline, in which a 2nd/twin eye is
made (and so to come completely untied, a LOT of rope must pass out of the
nub).  This has some merit I think for contact with the harness (not that there
has been any reported problem with a single strand running through (much
to my surprise, thinking of nylon-on-nylon heat!?)).  Well, there is a good
variation of that, too, which I'll guess adds strength & security.  But such a
twin-eye knot will be problematic for connecting to D-shaped 'biners, as
it will leverage the metal more.

Quote
You'll also note that my water bowline (fig eight) varies slightly f...

I sure did!  And I don't count it as all so "slightly", in behavior:  that knot will JAM!
(It might have a superficial resemblance to the EBDB, but note that the overwrapping
part here is given full tension; the EBDB's binding wrap is manually tensioned only!)

One beauty of the Clove Bowline (putting aside "Water" for further historical review
--as the original images show quite separated half-hitch parts, NOT a Clove as
Budworth (perhaps?) has originated (just as, in contrast, directionally, the ancient
"Killick/Killeg/K..." hitch had snug parts, and not the widely spaced Timber H.
and HH:  the original, I'm pretty sure, was really a Cow hitch with the tail "dogged"
for security, and was intended to jam in water-swollen natural-fibre ropes and so
bind well to the object left on uncertain sea floor to anchor).  whew, where am I?
Oh, yes, Clove Bwl.  A beauty of this and --better, IMO-- Cow Bwl are the "mirrored"
variations in which you "collar" both ends of the loop-making parts, "coming & going";
as these knots seem resistant to coming untied, even when tied rather open & loose
("rather")!  They provide (yes, Roo, consume) a good bit of material which might have
some bit of energy absorption (helpful maybe on shorter vs. longer falls).

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 05:33:25 PM by Dan_Lehman »

agent_smith

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Re: Janus Bowline or an equivalent secure bowline for climbing/rescue purposes
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2008, 12:21:36 PM »
Version 1.5 is up...Merry Christmas!

Go here: www.paci.com.au/IGKT/Bowlines.pdf

Added original clove bowline and placed on same page to enable comparison (to see why the reversed clove bowline will jam under load).

Added a clove bowline with yosemite finish (I think I have yosemite on the brain). I am also considering adding a yosemite finish to the EBDB (p8, fig 22) and photographing it - hope that won't offend!

Does anyone have any historical and technical data on any of these variations to the original #1010 bowline?

Will take one or two more photos tomorrow (time permitting) and then upload.

Will need to do some serious think tank over next few days and make a few bold statements about which variation is the better candidate. By 'better', I mean a knot that has the 'easy to untie' property of a bowline but also has the security and stability of a figure 8 eye knot (now I'm calling it an eye knot).

Dan, do you have any issues with the so-called 'yosemite bowline' (page 4, figure 6). If yes, what are your issues?

Also, how do I tie this?

Quote
Oh, yes, Clove Bwl.  A beauty of this and --better, IMO-- Cow Bwl are the "mirrored"
variations in which you "collar" both ends of the loop-making parts, "coming & going";
as these knots seem resistant to coming untied, even when tied rather open & loose
("rather")!  They provide (yes, Roo, consume) a good bit of material which might have
some bit of energy absorption (helpful maybe on shorter vs. longer falls).

It seems you are alluding to something here but I am unclear as to exactly what form and structure...

agent smith
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 12:37:05 PM by agent_smith »