Author Topic: New Animated Knots Website  (Read 22213 times)

Alan Grogono

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New Animated Knots Website
« on: June 11, 2005, 10:17:49 PM »
I have just uploaded a revised version of:  
http://www.grogono.com/knot

The new animations are devoted to climbing knots.  Advice, corrections, comments, suggestions will all be appreciated - particularly with respect to the new Climbing section.

Thanks,
Grog (Alan W. Grogono)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2005, 12:56:39 AM »
The Ashley's Stopper is botched--you should find information about this
in another thread, here.

The 'Kleimheist' is misspelled:  it's 'klemheist' ("klem" meaning   "clamp", I think).  Similarly, it's 'Bachmann' (to 'n's).

(-;


Alan Grogono

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2005, 06:06:08 PM »
Thank you Dan.  

Ashley Stopper re-photographed following Ashley with more attention to detail!  

Do you have any authoritative source for Klem vs Kleim.  I spent an hour on the web looking for any firm information.  I couldn't find anything definitive.  I also tried translating kleim and klem with no success.  

Thanks - Grog

bazz

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2005, 07:17:27 PM »
Hi Folks,

Klemheist is spelled Klemheist.
I have been climbing for over 20 years and it's always been that way.

source of this spelling was from, A Manual Of Modern Rope Techniques, by Nigel Shepherd, 1990. ISBN 0094691703.

I hope this saves you some time looking  ;)

Barry ;D

bazz

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2005, 07:27:51 PM »
Only me again ;D

Hi Grongono,
I don't want offend you in any way, but do you actually climb, use the knots in your climbing section for climbing and know how each knot is used by a climber or own a book on climbing and climbing rope work techniqe?
Is your information second hand via other web sites or other not climbing specific knot books?

For instance your Figure 8 loop follow through ( Re-threaded figure 8) does not mention that this knot is used to attach the end of the rope to the climbers harness??

Like I said I don't want to offend, but when someones life is at stake it matters to me that you are passing on correct and valid info.
I worked in a climbing shop for 5 years selling gear and passing on knowlege first hand, if I was ever unsure of something I would chek with the British Mountaineering council for advice.

You May want to check out the PETZL web site  http://www.petzl.com/petzl/Accueil as they have lots of picture info on knots and uses.

Sorry if I have stepped out of line.
Good site otherwise ;)

Barry

« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 07:43:55 PM by bazz »

Alan Grogono

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2005, 07:44:34 PM »
Hi Bazz:

Thank you !

I am a sailor not a climber.  I wrote the climbing section in response to numerous e-mail requests.  I am now trying to get enough feedback to eliminate the very problem you mention, i.e., I need help to avoid offending the real climbers.  The reason I'm trying to get this right is that this website has ranked number 1 on Google for "Animated Knots" for many months now.

Best wishes - Grog

Alan Grogono

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2005, 08:42:28 PM »
Thank you Barry and Dan.
Klemheist is now spelled Klemheist.
I think I have tested all the links.
- Grog -

bazz

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2005, 09:31:15 PM »
Hi Alan :)

No worries, it's not a case of offending experienced climbers just trying not to confuse new or inexperienced climbers. I was more worried about offending you ;)


I wish you well with your site and hope that you stay #1 as your pages are quick to reference, some sites seem to take an age to open up a page, well on dial up connection anyway.

All the best,
Barry ;D

PS. Your photo animations are much better than any drawn / Cad animations I have seen.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 09:37:33 PM by bazz »

KnotNow!

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2005, 06:18:47 AM »
Nice site.  Perhaps this is the future of knot instruction.  I don't have a lot of "online time" to spend so it will take some weeks before I've looked at your whole site.  I am not a "climber" but I often trust my life to knots.  Did I miss the disclaimer statement in your site?  Not that I can get killed or sue you but some more limited person might.  If it isn't there, put it in the fine print.  I really enjoy the site.  Good Work.  Just a thought, If BAZZ and I can "pick up" on you not being a climber.... well be darned careful what you post as an authority.  By the way this would also apply to rescue knots and any rope work that might put someone at risk.  This is not to say you are not doing a great job.  Just protect yourself from idiots.  If you want to post a knot from the arborists... have at it.  I want to see it!  Please protect youself from some wannabe arborist who sits on the branch and then cuts it off.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 06:24:01 AM by PABPRES »
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2005, 10:06:18 AM »
[2nd half]-:

----------
About that Fig.8 loopknot (and bend):  your advice to
Quote
ensure that the two strands lie neatly, and parallel beside each other with no twists round each other. Finally, check that there are two parallel turns at each part of the knot.
I've read elsewhere, and it's naively wrong.  The what I call flat orientation
of the knot (not to be confused with some sense of "flat" meaning "offset")
is impossible to maintain in material of a round cross section.  You've violated
a piece of advice/direction(!) of some works to ensure that the SPart takes the "outer"
curve (you have the end doing this in the loopknot).  But that advice is flat like
the image.  Please see my drawing on Dan Britton's "Knot Knowledge" site.
www.iland.net/~jbritton/KnotPhotoContributions.html
Updated Link > www.pssurvival.com/PS/Knots/Knot_Knowledge_Photo_Illustrations_2004.pdf
The assertion re strength comes from Rob Chisnall's ORCAssoc. Safety Manual,
and is contradicted by Lyon Equipment's testing.  Strength data sadly comes in
all over the map, so to speak, with little or no explanation of knot orientation, etc.,
to help make sense of it.  But let's just call what I show the "perfect" form,
meaning "perfectly symmetric".  (Yeah, so is that bogus "flat" form, but it's not
maintainable under tension; one can find some other symmetric forms that are.)
And,  yes, you should find a few other loopknots of interest here as well.

As for "For safety a longer end is essential", I guess we can toss that misclaim into
PABPRES's disclaimer bucket.  In fact, it isn't, unless perhaps one is in the habit of making
loose knots.  Even then, if the end slips out of the last tuck, you're presented not
with spilling but Ashley's #1057 or 1058 (or some who-knows-what if you've tied
an *Imperfect* form).  Some rationalize the purpose of the stopper knot to ensure
length of end.  "You can't be too safe", and all that.  For climbing, or any other
situation with fall potential, yeah, make it complete--for a snag on some protusion
to ring-load the eye would capsize & spill the briefer knots; it could flype and
spill a full Fig.8, too (as has been demonstrated for the Offset Fig.8 bend), but there
one has a better fighting chance (esp. w/the back-up Strangle).
(It would be good to show this back-up knot TIGHT:  to my great surprise, one
of the rec.climbing regulars (Dawn Alguard, who maintains a site of collected climbing
wisdom) admitted to having her back-up come untied!!  It shouldn't.

-----------
Re the Bowline ("Blw"):  "two loops engage ..." => "a loop & bight are united".
--using those traditional definitions (which are oft' given but generally ignored).
The Bwl isn't so "identical", but similar, as the Bwl loads both ends of the
"loop" (and one of the bight; the Becket H. is the reverse).  I know what you
mean, but it's helpful to point out some difference, for folks are prone to make
bad deductions based on the notion of identicalness--the Bwl is more secure
on account of its loading, and assumes a different geometry.

That red-roped Yosemite Bwl irks me; for there are better ways, and that one has
some risk of deformation in tying, and isn't so good in stiffer rope.
For a decent secure-when-slack variation, bring the end around as you do
but cross over BOTH legs of the eye, then u-turn w/end (horizontally) and
bring it back under both legs, tucking it out between the R leg of the eye
and the parallel parts there (side of main "loop" and first turn of end).
Call it a doubly tucked Half-Hitch; it sufficiently binds the SPart to prevent
loosening when slack in many situations (such as climbing, where Bwl.s have
been known to loosen and even come undone).

The Dbl.Bwl (aka Round-turn Bwl) would be a good variant to show, as it's pretty
well know & appreciated.

-----------
re Rolling Hitch:
Ah, geesh.  There's the spelling issue noted elsewhere ('Bachmann', 'Klem').
And there there is a load of stuff parroted from knots books that is too far from
the mark for comfort.  Slippage in friction hitches comes and goes with the vast
number of combinations of several factors (relative dia., coeff.s of friction, load,
construction, elasticity, setting).  Frankly, I wouldn't trust this or the close relative
which you dismiss (though it grips better in some cases) in many cases w/o adding
a stopper--that finishing HHitch just isn't so secure, often.
You note that Ashley only once pictures the version you stress?  Hmmm.
Friction hitches come in many varieties--some load mainly the top of a coil
(like what you dismiss, and the Hedden H.), some the bottom (Klemheist,
Bachmann (though Franz has many the other way round)).  Arborists sometimes
use your dismissed version, with a full roundturn finish, upside-down (so,
loading the bottom of the effective coil).  (The Prusik, I should point out,
largely loads the bottom of its ("upper") coil, as until that grips it will push and
release the near-to-load/"bottom" coil!)  Your remark "would a climber reallly tie ..."
can be answered pretty matter of factly that a climber doesn't use THIS hitch
(seems that Carl Prusik's knot got them going, although the Rolling H. in its
various forms was around to be known).

For some pages w/many friction h.s, check out Gary Storrick's & TreeSpyder's sites:
storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/AscenderKnots.html
www.mytreelessons.com/
www.mytreelessons.com/friction%20hitch-work%20in%20progress.htm

[NOW, BACK TO FINISH THE PART 1 OF THIS MSG.! :-]
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 08:36:10 PM by SS369 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2005, 10:12:29 AM »
Quote
Ashley Stopper re-photographed following Ashley with more attention to detail!

Well, it's still wrong, or have you not incorproated the new pics ("June 1st" implies...)
2 B perspicuous:
Let's take your exploded photo for reference:  remove the end from the
final tuck, let it drop down; give that SPart bight a half twist with right leg
going around BEHIND left, to lie newly left of the current left leg of the bight.
This state should show clearly that the SPart rises up through the Overhand tied
around it, centered nicely at the spine.  And ready for Overhand tightening!
Now, to finish, bring the end up around the left side and out through the SPart's bight
--crossing will be UNDER (left leg) & Over the right side.
(One could do this with the knot tied as you show by making the half-twist and
flipping the end's, er, belly up over the knot to lie on the left side (or by jumping
the SPart up over this "belly" to the right).
Another perspective:  consider your Overhand image, upper right pic:  to convert
this to Ashley's Stopper, the SPart (upper end, running out of pic) would be brought
down & through the hole in the Overhand knot, AT/towards the viewer, but leaving some bight
away from the viewer (i.e., don't untie the Overhand!); then the end would be tucked out
through this SPart bight by going around the right side ("belly" of Overhand, away from
the "spine"--Harry Asher terms, btw), and inserted through the Spart bight right
to left (ah, after having first tightened the Overhand component).

More on this page.  "The stopper knot" is mistaken to denote the Strangle or Dble. Overhand
knot, whereas is should denote the entire class of stoppers.  Frankly, it's a bit debatable
whether your Bwl's tail tie-off is a stopper or rather a hitch (or binder?),
in that it's not loaded against anything, but is tied around an object.

Quote
Do you have any authoritative source for Klem vs Kleim.  I spent an hour on the web looking for any firm information.  I couldn't find anything definitive.  I also tried translating kleim and klem with no success.

Well, take my word.  Hmm, maybe "klemm" is better; Heinz Prohaska (whose name
might be credential enough, suggesting ... Austria?!) has a suggested name for one of
his similar knots of "Klemmknoten Pro".  "Kreutzklem" (I think I've just seen it with
the one 'm') translates, I've heard, to "cross clamp"; hence my speculation about "klemheist".
As for looking for sources, someone remarked about the confusion re knots:
Quote
There is an article with 'prusik', 'prussik', and 'prussic'; 'klemheist' and 'kleimheist', all in one article at:
www.thebmc.co.uk/services/summit/backissues/SUMMIT_26.pdf

--that about explains the problem, eh?!  :-/
Trust me, it's NOT 'kleim'; I'm still wondering about the 'klem' v. 'klemm' bit, and hope
that Heinz can explain.  (Interestingly, apparently back when Bob Thrun put together
his book Prusiking (Nat.Spelio.Soc.) ca. 1969, the Klemheist didn't seem to surface
--at least he doesn't mention it (and he's a pretty thorough & attentive fellow!).
But he does discuss the Hedden Hitch, and noted that orientation doesn't matter
(actually, it does), and he shows an "upside-down Hedden", which is in effect a sort
of minimal klemheist (which grips less well in equal wraps than the Hedden).

[ACK, BUMPING INTO THAT DARN MSG-SIZE CONSTRAINT!]-:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 11:44:28 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Alan Grogono

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2005, 01:29:45 PM »
Thanks for the valuable input.  I wish I could reply but I am to have a total knee replacement today and may not feel up to properly dealing with the helpful suggestions for about a week.

Briefly:

There is a disclaimer at the foot of each page.

The revised Ashley pictures are up - try refreshing your browser for that page.

- Grog -

Dan_Lehman

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2005, 09:52:32 PM »
Best success with your knee operation!
--out on a bike (?) ASAP, perhaps?

As for the Ashley Stopper page, what I saw early this a.m. and now this
afternoon is the same, page "updated June 1st 2005", for Stopper or
Dbl.Overhand knot.  The A.S. in exploded image (on left) had the SPart
running with slight upper lean rightwards & anticlockwise u-turn, the
Overhand component center-left, spine lower & belly upper, and SPart
sort of impinging on the spine, and the end gracefully looping around
anticlockwise crossing OVER the SPart and tucked out the upper bight
with Under-Over crossings.  My impression was that this wasn't the
image I first saw; in any case, it's the one to which my recent comments
apply, and is incorrect as noted.

Btw, nice Disclaimer.  ("Every effort" would better be "Considerable
attention and effort", as of course one cannot do "every" thing.)

Cheers,
--dl*
====

knudeNoggin

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2005, 10:45:15 PM »
Quote
As for the Ashley Stopper page, what I saw early this a.m. and now this
afternoon is the same, page "updated June 1st 2005", ... .  ...   My impression was that this wasn't the
image I first saw; in any case, it's the one to which my recent comments
apply, and is incorrect as noted.

Indeed the page has changed, and as is noted is still incorrect.  From the preceding page
one way to achieve correctness from the left/open image of the knot would be to
tuck the end back through the arc it forms in going out through the SPart's bight/loop
(bring the end into this arc towards the viewer from behind) and then pull the end
firmly rightwards, which will give the needed half-twist to the SPart's bight to put
it into proper center-of-spine position.  Viola, and it's there!  One should note the
nice three-pointed stopper face that Ashley's Stopper produces; it is really a shame that
this aspect has been neglected by misrepresentation of the (simple!) knot so much.

More about some Climbing knots, for consideration.
The "Dbl.Fisherman's" needs "Bend" in its name, and should note the alias "Grapevine Bend"
to distinguish it from a loop and, in some localities (arborist), a noose-hitch (which
has garnered the mismoniker "Fisherman's" of all things--working from a logic to say
that "Dble.Fish" = that knot w/2 such things, hence a (single) Fish. must be one of them!).
Re the note about needing more wraps for "high tech" (better:  "high modulus"; also,
it might help to give popular trade names "Spectra/Dyneema", "Kevlar/Technora"),
it should help to note that the advice applies even to ropes where such material
is only in the core--that although the surface fiber might be polyester, the core can
slip within it (which is a new phenomenon to contemplate, I think)!  You will see of
such a behavior in one of Tom Moyer's collected misc. test cases, for Technora.

"Half Hitch Join" ??  --never heard that name, and don't see a half-hitch really
(except as it is sort of a part of an overhand).  This knot is best called "Offset Overhand
Bend".  You are right about the OOB being less likely to be stuck or otherwise impeded
in drawing down abseil ropes; but I don't think that a real discrimination of this aspect
can be made between the Grapevine & Fig.8 bends--both are more prone to getting
hung up (and I'd guess the former slightly more so).

Similarly, about knot names, "Double Half Hitch" is nothing I've ever seen for the
Dble.Overhand/Strangle knot; it has been used for Two Half Hitches, though.
(A better knot to wear "Half hitch join" is the Grass Bend or Whatnot.)

*knudeNoggin*

Mike

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Re: New Animated Knots Website
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2005, 07:59:30 AM »
Is it just me or is that last picture of the alpine butterfly wrong?  The two turns in the middle should be crossing each other.

Or maybe I have always done it wrong?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 08:03:32 AM by Mike »