Author Topic: What knot to use?  (Read 17297 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2008, 09:08:34 PM »
Quote
This forum's current chatter could provide some ideas for the scene:  so many here cite the Constrictor
knot as one of their Top Ten, one could fancy their too-clever-by-half employment of it upon some
victim, all the while smugly asserting their expertise; and the victim, less vocal but more savvy,
taking advantage of the insight offered by Roo of that knot's weakness in its needing to be pressed
against a convex surface--conceivably one could wiggle the wrists to exploit this!

Liminal, everybody,
Please do not under any circumstances apply a constrictor to the human body.  Its self gripping and concealing structure
make it virtually impossible to untie once it has tightened, especially should it have the opportunity to partly embed itself
into a fleshy area, which makes it hard, even dangerous to cut it off.

Holy Hyperbole, BatMan!!   :o
Is it precisely this sort of balderdash I had pointed to in the quoted passage,
and speak of the devil and he shall appear!?   ::)

Where to begin:  "under any circumstance"!?  Well, under the cicrumstance of learning
before typing, I just tied said dangerous and intractably secure binder knot around my very
own personal pair of wrists and--much to the consternation fo some, no doubt--I'm yet able
to play the keyboard (just imagine the contortions!); or perhaps I was able to work free (yes)?
Not to be too light in the tensioning, I tied (w/hands bound--bonus points to the knotting merit badge)
Ashley's Stopper in the shorter end, slotted it in a handy by-the-pulley thin-slotted hook,
and stepped down into an eye on the opposite end, and t i g h t e n e d   (with visions
of the local headlines:  Knot So-Called "Expert" Dies on Self-Binding !).  My material
was old 8mm nylon kernmantle, rather frictive (from age, not wear), moderately firm.
No, I didn't put my full (or even half) weight upon the end--but maybe, hmmm, 30# force?
Keep in mind the friction of wraps going around flesh (or garments) and how that defeats
the real tightening of a binding, too.

Ashley's myth about the Constictor's undefeatable security has lived too long, parroted
rather than probed.  YMMV w/materials & circumstance.  I've found some Constrictor
whippings loosened (which I know I set fairly if not maximally tightly).

> embed itself into a fleshy area, which makes it hard, even dangerous to cut it off.

This suggests a thin cord, no?  --no my 8mm.  --or rather fleshy vs. scrawny hands
(aha:  another charge against overeating--risk of Constrictor-embedding!)  In any case,
though, cutting is rather straightforwardly UNdangerous, chopping through the one spot
of doubled (on top of) material into not flesh but the overhand crossing beneath.
 BUT ...

> The constrictor works when it has a convex surface behind the compression area and

... that is not entirely likely with hands tying, where the hands might be palm-2-palm and
the knot naturally tied with the twisted/knotted portion spanning the hands.  (Recall i.p.
the premise of the OP re knotting skill, as my quoted passage remarks.)  Even in other
orientations, I suspect that the victim unless very tightly bound with thin cord will be able
to make some shifting of wrists to help release nipping pressure at one side of the nip.
[Thinking of Chisholm's "nub", this is an interesting case re "knot"/"nub", as so much of
the binding is simply the span of the wraps beside each other.]

And with thin cord not expertly positioned for the crossing/knotted part to seat well into
favorably shaped surface area (again, recall the OP), there is relatively MORE room
between hands for the loosening.  (But this vulnerability would likely loom large and
immediate--i.e., frustrating the tying--, with cord of say 4mm or smaller, right?)

>  not at all if the knot ['s crossing point] is suspended over a concave area, ... are all essentially convex

Hmmm, I disagree:  my wrists are more eliptical w/significantly flattish broad sides (top/bottom);
and the give of flesh works against sure holding, too, when wiggling.

> In my opinion the constrictor and its sister the strangle should never be use for direct restraint.

We might agree here, for exactly opposite reasons re their efficacy!

 :)

DerekSmith

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2008, 11:52:17 AM »
GOTCHA

Obit

Police today reported finding the decomposed remains of the world renown KnotMeister after breaking into his home following complaints from neighbours of "A really 'niffy' smell".

At first Police suspected foul play as they found the emaciated Knotmeisters corpse bound and trussed.  The Police Chief told reporters that the victim was bound in every conceivable place, adding - "it was not a pretty sight", and that his first assumption was that the Knotmeister has been the victim of a cult gang attack in some sort of ritualistic bondage sacrifice.

However later investigations of the Knotmeisters computer revealed that he was a member of a secretive guild calling themselves the IGKT and that his computer held evidence of regular communications claiming various acts of self bondage.  Some members of the guild had apparently warned him 'not to do it', but it seemed the urge to indulge in self bondage had been too much for the Knotmeister to resist.

Some members of the guild commented that he had never been quite the same after an explicit photo of a large lady enjoying self bondage had been posted, stimulating some members into commenting and seemingly stimulating the Knotmeister a little too excessively into extensive personal experimentation.  After this incident, he apparently made a number of posts wherein he claimed to have bound himself with numerous knots and cord, his favourites seeming to be lamp cord and a lovely silky 8mm braid.

Following this revelation, Police called in a Forensic Knot Expert, who confirmed that some of the bindings had been in place long before the victim had died and that those parts of his body had been decomposing for some time before the fatal bindings were applied.  The Forensic expert confirmed that the complexity and precision with which the knots had been tied, was a trademark of a great Knotmeister, of which only a few exist in the world today, he commented - "No 'man in the street' would know these knots nor how to tie them with such attention to precision".  He added that perhaps the Knotmeister had become so attached to his little creations that he could not bring himself to destroy them, although another line of thought was that perhaps he just couldn't get them off!!

The police were inundated with requests from various BDSM groups and hundreds of older men, for details of the knots the great Knotmeister had used (especially one mistakenly being called 'The Python'), and photographs of the gory remains were said to be flooding YouTube.   The Grand Baron and Chief Elves of the IGKT were quick to distance themselves and the Guild from anything remotely 'smutty or smelly' and declined to be interviewed on the knots to use (however, it is understood that one member of the guild is providing high quality DVDs with full details of how to tie numerous bindings, even decorative ones).

Ordinary members of the guild said that they would miss the Knotmeisters rapier like posts and their WebMistress, (later reported to be a 6' 8" bricky called Jonno), said he would especially miss the wonderful, pedantic detailed posts the Knotmeister was renown for.

Meanwhile, Government ministers expressed grave concern that string and other dangerous weapons were apparently freely available to every member of the public and were said to be in discussion to enact legislation banning the use of string and the teaching of knots to anyone unless they were CANTAB.  The government were said to be unwilling to put in place a total ban on the use of knots 'as some responsible parts of society rely on knots extensively for personal enjoyment', but they felt that this was just beyond the 'man in the street' to appreciate and society would be a safer place if it were to be made a criminal offence to be found in possession of string without the appropriate upbringing, and the song "Grandads got a python,  No, No, it's a Constrictor" is tipped to top the Christmas singles charts.

RIP Knotmeister,
You went a happy man.


DerekSmith

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2008, 12:46:17 PM »
Seriously though Dan,

With all respect to your dexterity, I must agree that not ALL applications of the Constrictor will be problematical and yes cord thickness is a variant involved in this limitation.

In general the issues affecting the working of the Constrictor are:-

Convex surface
Springy surface
Thickness of cord to bound curvature (thinner binds more effectively)
Self frictional coefficient (higher friction more effective)
Structural integrity (hairy laid string more effective than solid braid).

So yes, if you pick the worst case mix from this set -- two bony wrists (with concave gaps), bound with thick (8mm) kernmantle, then you will (as you have proved) be able to get the self grip to fail.

BUT

Most people will have access to hairy laid string or binder twine and if I were to bind (even) your wrists individually with constrictor knots in these materials, even with your knowledge of the knot structure, it is likely that you would not release the bindings and there would be a high risk that they would tighten in your exertions leading to 'dead hands'.  With no knowledge of how the knot will respond to frantic pulling and tugging, the 'man in the street' would soon be in a mess.

Warnings are much like Laws - there will be exceptions where they do not hold up to scrutiny, but if the warning is 3 pages long, then the hands might have dropped off, long before the caveats have been read.

I will for the sake of clarity make the point, that if we intend to restrain someone, then we have a duty of care to ensure that we will not harm them in the process and some knots like the autogripping constrictor have a significantly higher chance of doing harm than knots chosen to restrain safely.

But perhaps most relevant is that there really is only one Knotmeister.

The man who bound himself with the Constrictor and lived to tell the tale...


DerekSmith

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 02:43:24 PM »

> In my opinion the constrictor and its sister the strangle should never be use for direct restraint.

We might agree here, for exactly opposite reasons re their efficacy!

 :)

OK, so here is the challenge !

Safety First:-
Before tying the challenge, tape a 12" length of cord from your knuckles up the forearm on each arm.  These will be used to safely pull the constrictor cords away from the wrist so it may be cut to release it.

Using a length of polly bailer twine, form a Constrictor and pass it over one hand.  Set the knot on the wrist joint with the knot on the outside of the wrist (i.e not palm side).
Remove slack from the constrictor by pulling it up, but do not bind the line into the skin.

Safety :- take the ends of the safety release cord and tie them together to form a loop which can pull the constrictor up and away from the back of the wrist to allow the insertion of a blade or scissors.

Make a second Constrictor and place it around the second wrist joint (wrists behind the back) with the connecting cord passing diagonally between the wrists and the Constrictor on the outside of the wrist as in the first wrist.  Tighten the Constrictor and make the safety cord into a loop.

Bring the ends together diagonally between the wrists and finish them with a rethreaded strangle encompassing the first diagonal cord.  The gap between the wrists does not have to be tight as a little slack will encourage the person foolish enough to take up the challenge to struggle a little.  Fully tighten the rethreaded strangle closure.

The 'challenger' must never be left unattended with the hands bound in this manner and if the hands become swollen or cold or the 'challenger' experiences tingling or numbness, the safety cords must be tensioned to pull the bindings away from the wrists and the bindings cut off immediately.

The challenger is then allowed to attempt to escape from the bindings without using knives or any other sharp implement to cut the bindings, but if they are feeling agile enough, they may step through their arms to bring the wrists to the front to bring their teeth to bear on the bindings.  Naturally, the safety release loops are only there for safety, and the challenger may not use them to aid their escape.

Anyone feeling foolish enough to take up the challenge?


Webmistress.
If you feel this challenge is inappropriate for an open board, please feel free to take it down, I will not object in any way.  I must confess to feeling quite uncomfortable making posts like this on a board which does not carry the PG warning.

Derek

SS369

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2008, 03:28:20 PM »
I hate to egg you on Derek, but I need the next installment of the "As the Knot Ties" saga.
You have talent my friend.

My challenge is to tie yourself or have someone else tie a 16 part by 3 Bight thk around the arms, behind the back, from the wrists to elbows (or beyond), snug up so the load is well spread and then escape.
I believe that would certainly resist the attempt, and if knot we can come up with a more complicated (decorative) method.
And at least it will look nice to boot.

SS

Did we answer Liminal's original post?

aknotter

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 05:20:53 PM »
Derek,
   
Your "Obit" has to be one of the funniest things I have seen lately. I Laughed Out Loud!!! As SS said, "You have talent!"
Jimmy R Williams - IGKTPAB Secretary/Treasurer
Site: IGKTPAB.ORG Email: IGKTPAB@GMAIL.COM
Event Pix: PICASAWEB.GOOGLE.COM/IGKTPAB

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
Somehow in the "challenge"  the situation has moved significantly from what I thought was the
issue, hinging on a loose interpretation of "binding the hands with a Constrictor"--which I interpret
to mean the binding of the two hands with a single knot so named,
and not, as Derek's challenge has it, simply incorporating said knot in a compound-knot binding,
where the C. actually only surrounds a single wrist!
For Derek's sleight of hand here in conducting his defence, I hear the sound of one hand clapping.   ;)

We are well beyond the OP question, and more nearly back to some earlier topic regarding how
to bind an escapologist.

>>> Bring the ends together diagonally between the wrists and finish them with a rethreaded strangle encompassing the first diagonal cord.

Apparently you intend for the tied-with-double-cord (the two ends) Strangle knot to serve qua friction hitch?!
I doubt that one could not simply pull the bound two unknotted ends (of 1st-tied C.) through this Strangle (I saw no
indication of these ends being knotted to effect a Grapevine-like bend).  Incidentally, the Constrictors in the case
of such pulling apart are then operating qua sling-shortener (i.e., a known structure to shorten a loop-sling); the
knot wouldn't be further tightened in this loading.

As for attributes re the Constrictor's efficacy,
I don't think that springiness/softness of the objects is such a help--it makes for less resistance
against the entangled ends.  Moreover, this and friction in any of the materials involved will work
to reduce the transmission of force to tension the overwrap which is afterall much of what distinguishes
the C. from a simple Overhand knotting.  (It seems like a can't-win situation:  with a slick material one
is able to put great tension all around, but then it takes more pressure to secure the slick ends; with
a frictive one, tensioning is frustrated, but the friction also frustrates slipping out.)  It is easy to see
in Double  versions (#1252-3) of the knot that there's a challenge to getting equal tension  to
the middle wrap (middle at point opposite the overhand, atop which are just two wraps)--and this
in nylon mason line around nylon rope/cord.

As for those elaborate Constrictor-freeing precautions of a separate cord for making a gap for
a knife/scissors, geeesh, it would be simpler to cut the overwrap, as previously pointed out,
or to pull up one end sharply and cut it at the knot, then pull the other to spill the knot.

--dl*
====

DerekSmith

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 10:11:55 PM »
Yo Jimmy and Scott, thank you both.  Yes, Scott, there is so much wrong in the world today that the 'saga' could run to many episodes, but perhaps enough is enough for one day, I don't want to upset the Elves.

As for Liminal, I guess he/she is off doing what students are renown for doing, and has given up getting any sense out of us lot.

Dan, although I never made any mention about binding both hands together in my Constrictor warnings, I have to admit to taking liberties in choosing the nature of the cord for the challenge.  Modern plastic baler 'twine' is a rather special material.  It has a reasonably low frictional aspect, so it can pull up well, but its structure is so poorly formed, that once you have run a number of strands together as in the constrictor or better still, the strangle, it is impossible to identify the parts of the knot, especially if you deliberately untwist the cord a little as you make the knots.  Once you have dressed and hard set a rethreaded strangle in this stuff, you are going to die of old age before you manage to unpick it.

Perhaps we could start The Knotmeister Challenge for our major meetings.  Any thoughts what it might entail?

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 07:41:25 AM »
Dan, although I never made any mention about binding both hands together in my Constrictor warnings,
But did you presume that the rest of us had in mind individually Constrictoring wrists,
vs. the more immediate/natural binding hands together with a single knot?

Quote
I have to admit to taking liberties in choosing the nature of the cord for the challenge.
Modern plastic baler 'twine' is a rather special material.  It has a reasonably low frictional aspect, ...
Once you have dressed and hard set a rethreaded strangle in this stuff,
you are going to die of old age before you manage to unpick it.

But I must not follow your case, and you've not answered my if-so mistaken thinking,
that your ("rethreaded"--as opposed to what?) Strangle was formed in one wrist's
Constrictor's two ends around the other's two (and that not otherwise tied off, say
with a Half-Hitch in the other two ends then jammed in opposition to the Strangle).
"reasonably low frictional content" is what I was guessing would enable the unknotted
pair of ends to be pulled free through the even hard-set Strangle around them.

As for this twine:  is it of flat, split-film, fibrillated material, in a very elongated twist?
I find such stuff
  •   quite useful qua WHIPPING material, for esp. small cords, as it

is flat an let's one play with series of wraps & HHitches  (my beloved ComFish.
"Reverse Groundline H.",  and variations on that theme, in sequence), having
rather impressive strength at such small quantities, and bulking little on overwraps
given the flatness.

--dl*
====

  •   By "such stuff", I mean the fibres  of said twine, variously separated by particular
    width for the job, with quite thin/fine material able to do work on small cords.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 06:58:56 PM by Dan_Lehman »

liminal

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 03:44:14 AM »
Hi,
    Hope you all had a good Christmas. Thanks for all the very informative replies, apologies for the lack of reply on my part.
 
I am in the process of finishing the script, and am still deciding on the part discussed. Any more thoughts or ideas will be greatly appreciated, though you have helped me so much already, many thanks, I shall keep checking back and will post with more specific detail to let you know when all is finished.

Cheers,

DerekSmith

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 10:49:18 AM »
Dan, although I never made any mention about binding both hands together in my Constrictor warnings,
But did you presume that the rest of us had in mind individually Constrictoring wrists,
vs. the more immediate/natural binding hands together with a single knot?

--dl*
====

  •   By "such stuff", I mean the fibres  of said twine, variously separated by particular
    width for the job, with quite thin/fine material able to do work on small cords.
Hi Dan, no I made no such presumption, it has been fairly clear that most folks have fallen into the trap of attempting to bind the wrists "with a single knot", while those involved in restraint by profession always contain each wrist separately. See the 'Handcuff knot' attached.

As to the challenge, it is a single piece of cord, not a piece for each wrist.

Middle the cord, form a constrictor and place it over one wrist, take one end, form a second constrictor and place it over the second wrist - the cord going diagonally between the wrists and the knots on the outsides of the wrists and a gap of ca 3" between the wrists.  Use one of the ends and form a strangle around the diagonal connecting cord, the use the second end and rethread the strangle, then draw the strangle hard tight.  There are no unknotted ends to 'slip out'.

It is important for comfort that the wrists are spaced away from one another, remember, restraint is not about torture.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2008, 08:12:56 PM »
Hi Dan, no I made no such presumption, ...

But you did respond to my challenge to the Constrictor's efficacy qua handcuff binder
--where I meant that the C. alone did the work, not two C.s in some tandem structure--
with your challenge which involved the latter, compound case, as though you had
somehow answered my assertion of insecurity with it!?

Quote
it has been fairly clear that most folks have fallen into the trap of attempting to bind the wrists "with a single knot",
while those involved in restraint by profession always contain each wrist separately. See the 'Handcuff knot' attached.

We didn't fall into a trap here, but answered the OP, seeking a binding by an unskilled person
that could be defeated and derided by a skilled victim.

Re the Handcuff knot (this, or the easier, Fireman's chair? variant), it needs something further to secure it
--tying off ends w/Overhand crossing to make a pseudo Reef knot  finish, to which it then could also be
vulnerable to standard Reed capsizing and loosening.  Re "torture", I think that one is better off with both
wrists bound/lashed than with a tight Handcuff knot's single-strand wrapping; but I see your point in the
challenge you describe, in which tightness of the particular links isn't needed--just a certain proximity
to preclude some wrist movement and finger use (which the lashing only does by being rather tight).

Quote
Middle the cord, form a constrictor and place it over one wrist,
... There are no unknotted ends to 'slip out'.

Okay, now I understand.  Tying that Strangle is gratuitously tedious, and I don't see how even the initial
Strangle (which is later be doubled with other end) can be tied to a "diagonal" line at all easily with but
a scant 3 inches to work with--and not sure it is necessary, either; the diagonality of the connecting
lines between C.s the key aspect in preventing rotation of the wrists.

--dl*
====

DerekSmith

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Re: What knot to use?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 10:20:35 AM »

Re the Handcuff knot (this, or the easier, Fireman's chair? variant), it needs something further to secure it

--dl*
====

Agreed, and this tie off is potentially a weak point for attack if the hands can be brought to the front.  Ashley suggests simply hitching the ends to the loops which would be OK if the individual were under constant surveillance.  What would you suggest might withstand several hours of attention?

Quote
Tying that Strangle is gratuitously tedious, and I don't see how even the initial
Strangle (which is later be doubled with other end) can be tied to a "diagonal" line at all easily with but
a scant 3 inches to work with--and not sure it is necessary, either; the diagonality of the connecting
lines between C.s the key aspect in preventing rotation of the wrists.

Again agreed, but this was only a mental exercise...  wasn't it?

Derek