Author Topic: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"  (Read 12382 times)

Mason

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Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« on: October 28, 2008, 11:00:26 PM »
Greetings,

I'm hoping to determine if I've developed a new hitch or if in fact it's been used elseware and perhaps there are some printed or online references to it. 

I often rig block and tackle style "rope winches".  In the specific case, I'm always using hitches to tie the working end of the rope to the "body" of the standing end.  To do this, I've often used an Adjustable Grip Hitch because it supplies fairly good friction and can be effectively tied when the line is under load. 

However, I've been looking for a better hitch to bind to more slippery rope.  Both the icycle hitch and the sailor's gripping hitch have not been very helpful, mainly because they are quite hard to tie when the line is under tension. 

Here is a varient of the sailor's gripping hitch ( http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/sailorhitches.html) which is the topic of this thread.  Note, I have one less turn then that pictured, but the hitch I'm introducing here has been tied with a variety of turns:  1-5 generally.  So, I suppose it's a family of the same hitch. 

In short, this hitch has been easy for me to tie and performs very well.  I've done a fair amount of "home grown" load drops and static hangs with different rope types (hemp, nylon and mfp), plus it's seen a lot of real use and I'm quite pleased.  For practical tying, I slip the last half hitch so it's easy to undo. 

http://plotus.dreamhosters.com/MasonHitch.jpg    (appologies for my poor artwork, but hopefully this picture makes it easy to see how it is tied).  I like to call it a "bottom hitch". 

If you have any references or information about it that would be much appreciated.   

Cheers,

Mason
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 12:18:55 AM by Mason »

roo

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2008, 12:14:32 AM »
I'm not seeing how you'd tie this under tension.   Those initial lengthwise spirals wouldn't stay.  Do you have another mode of tying it? 

I'm always a little suspicious of knots and hitches that try hold pre-existing tension without having a tensioning mechanism, anyway.  The maximum amount of tension you'd hope to hold while tying is going to be what puny force human arms can support while manipulating rope.  Doing this in a lengthwise orientation just makes things worse.
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Mason

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2008, 01:32:15 AM »
Tying it is a snap and I've done so many times while lifting 100-300lbs.  For example, for testing I've rigged myself in a mountaineering harness and tied it as I'm hanging in mid air (I weigh about 230lbs).  Note, I'm lifting that with a rope pully system so there is a mechanical advantage that greatly reduces the weight "I" have to either lift up or pull down.

To tie it, I run the working end alongside the group of other ropes running parallel that have gathered together as a "bundle" as I rigged the pully system.  Then, I grip all the ropes including the working end in my left hand (I am right handed) using the thumb, middle, ring and pinky fingers.  You can actually hold a lot of weight in your hand like like that.  The index finger is free and the working end exiting the top of my left hand is relatively loose.  I  pass the working end over the top of the index finger to pin it for wrapping up the ropes.  Then I wrap a few times up the rope with my right hand, pull the working end down and across those wraps and finish the hitches. 

I'm trying to visualize how I do the turn through the ropes right before the last half hitch.  It's easy for me to do in practice, but it's a bit much to describe with text.  But, it's a one second move and I suspect if you tried it you'd work it out easily if you've followed along so far.  It involves shifting my grip with the left hand so none of the fingers are grasping the line that leads into the wraps, and then creating a bit of clockwise force to open the gap between the the main group of ropes and the part of the working end that has been added to the bundle below the wraps.  I then place the working end in the left hand to hold it as part of the bundle so I can let go with my right hand and reach around the back to grab it again.  After that, the final hitch is easy.  In general, I dress the hitch after the second to last hitch and then dress it a bit more after the last one.  Relatively speaking, dressing it is easy especially after the second to last hitch because the last half hitch provides a lever for the whole system. 

The problem with the Sailor's (Gripping) hitch is that under tension it is very hard to perform the final tuck under the ropes.  With the variation that I show the final hitch is a snap. 

I can probably tie the whole thing with 200lbs with a slipped variation and three turns in under five second.  Unslipped and that depends on how long the rope is since I'd be pulling it through the final half hitch.  With 8mm hemp, using only one turn and supporting my own weight, bouncing up and down in the climbing harness does not cause the hitch to slip.  Using MFP, three wraps consistently accomplished the same result. 

(Edited to better explain method of tying)

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 07:41:16 PM by Mason »

Mason

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 01:44:49 AM »
Here is a picture to reference the sort of system that I am working with.  In the description that I just wrote, I'm pulling the rope up with such a system but it is doable the other way to with a similar approach.  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Block_and_tackle_(PSF).png/300px-Block_and_tackle_(PSF).png 

When I mention the "bundle of rope", I mean the rope between the pullies.  I'm hitching the end he's pulling onto the rest of those ropes. 

DerekSmith

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2008, 06:28:23 PM »
Although in very slippery materials the 'Mason Hitch' was able to more easily be set to purchase than the Sailor's Hitch, neither performed remotely as well as the KC Hitch.  KC will not work on unloaded rope but in this application where the ropes remain in loaded tension, then the KC is both easy to tie and develops a wicked grip.

However, I have to admit to being confused as to why you would want to hitch your heaving line to the pulley lines ??  You have said that you are the load and have fixed your harness to the pulley.  If you want a temporary tie off, why not simply put an OH loop into the hauling line and clip it to a spare 'bina on your harness?  That way if the hauling end is long, there is no pulling through or wrapping around of a long end (and unwrapping when you come to cast back off).  There are numerous ways to tie off your hauling line to your harness each with varying degrees of ease to release the tie off when you have finished 'hanging around'.

Sorry I am not to be able to comment on the 'Newness' or otherwise of the 'Mason Hitch' though.

Derek

Mason

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2008, 06:41:05 PM »
Use of the climbing harness was merely for testing.  Needless to say, I employ this sort of rigging on a regular basis. 

Thank you for referencing the "KC Hitch".  Trying to imagine how you'd tie that in the context I describe, it "seems" difficult when I imagine trying to align the spirals (moving back down and criss crossing over the original coil).  But, I will try it out and perhaps I'vel found another quality option. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 08:30:02 PM by Mason »

roo

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2008, 10:55:19 PM »
Here is a picture to reference the sort of system that I am working with.  In the description that I just wrote, I'm pulling the rope up with such a system but it is doable the other way to with a similar approach.  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Block_and_tackle_(PSF).png/300px-Block_and_tackle_(PSF).png  

When I mention the "bundle of rope", I mean the rope between the pullies.  I'm hitching the end he's pulling onto the rest of those ropes.  

You're just after a way of keeping your rope from being drawn back through the pulleys, and there are already numerous ways to do this and they typically do not resort to lengthwise hitching, and I suspect that if you replaced your current hitch with another, simpler hitch, as Derek alluded to, you'd achieve your aim.

If you are really after lengthwise hitching under tension, you need find a setup that tests this:  Such as a vertical round pole or pipe and a rope with a 20 lb weight attached... you can work your way up to your 100-300 lb weight later and report back.  :D

Then you will see how you have to use one of your hands to prevent the weight from orbiting around the pole from your coils.  Then you will see how much slippage occurs before you're able to set the hitch.  Then you will see that you don't get the same opportunity to draw your hitch up tight before allowing it to stretch and bite into the pole.  Etc.

The next step is to try the same thing with an elastic load.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 07:14:00 PM by roo »
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Mason

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2008, 11:26:19 PM »
The simpler hitch I've used with a lot of success is an "Adjustable Gripping Hitch", but while simpler in structure it's not necessarily easier to tie. 

But this new one holds a bit better than the AGH with the same number of turns and it's faster to tie (at least for me).  I've tried tying the "KC Hitch" an hour ago and it seemed quite difficult to tie.  Specifically, keeping the wraps a bit seperate to subsequently wrap over and between on the "descent" of the wrapping didn't seem very convenient.   

I've tested with the Adjustable Grip Hitch, some variations of that (including the "Knut" and "TK"), a few tautline variations, a Jamming Hitch, a Distal hitch and a Schwabush.  I've not found any other friction hitches that CONVENIENTLY tie in the context that I've outlined here besides those.  (Note, I tested the Distal and Schwabush for my personal application which is an open system, but in general they are only recommended for a closed system). 

To be more clear, I "typically" tie with hemp and so the one turn variation is the norm.  Now and then I invoke the two or three turn variation and it's nice that with this more slippery rope this hitch consistently gets the job done. 

If you are really after lengthwise hitching under tension, you need find a setup that tests this:  Such a vertical round pole or pipe and a rope with a 20 lb weight attached... you can work your way up to your 100-300 lb weight later and report back.   

Then you will see how you have to use one of your hands to prevent the weight from orbiting around the pole from your coils.  Then you will see how much slippage occurs before you're able to set the hitch.  Then you will see that you don't get the same opportunity to draw your hitch up tight before allowing it to stretch and bite into the pole.  Etc.


Regarding your pole tests, I don't rig such a pully system with poles!  For a lengthwise hang from a vertical pole, in contexts where I've wanted to do that I use a Klemheist followed by a few reversing half hitches.  The Klemheist is thought to be "problematic" if the line slackens, so a few reversing half hitches are there to absorb any such slack--the line leading into the Klemheist remains taught.  Here is a picture.   http://plotus.dreamhosters.com/KlemLarks.html

In my explanations of how I rig this, one of my hands prevents such an orbit that you mention.  And there is never any "slippage", it actually dresses very well with a nice bite; right before the last half hitch I have an opportunity to pull the working line up hard which tightens and settles the hitch. 

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 12:59:34 AM by Mason »

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 08:46:56 PM »
This friction hitch has the required coil and another first phase reduction of force to the Coil, also seems like it would have some self tending capabilities (like knut, unlike schwab).   i have climbed on and used all the other mentioned hitches for pulley system grabs and locks also. 

Now, that being said, many times the type of host line, cord, ratio of diameters, dressing style etc. can come into play to give varied results for various peoples.  i use a similair variant of the Sailor's Gripping Hitch.  Also, a small krab or pulley can work as a tender between sheave and hitch, to serve hitch along (not jam into pulley) and yet hold when pulley isn't being pulled.  If this is done between sheaves, you have to watch direction of pull, and where you might have a hand pull of 5:1(1/5th of load held by hand), placing a hitch to hold might place 1/4th load on hitch (postion dependant).
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 08:47:59 PM by TheTreeSpyder »

knot4u

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2010, 06:58:45 PM »
I have found this variant (posted in the original post) to hold better generally:

http://plotus.dreamhosters.com/MasonHitch.jpg

Unfortunately, the original poster has not been active for almost two years.  Did you guys scare him away???  :D
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 07:03:10 PM by knot4u »

jcsampson

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2010, 10:53:02 PM »
When tied on the standing part, it's an Adjustable Grip Hitch with an upside-down coil. On the standing part, it performs nowhere near as well as the Adjustable Grip Hitch. I have not yet tried it on a vertical post.

JCS

knot4u

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2010, 11:06:20 PM »
When tied on the standing part, it's an Adjustable Grip Hitch with an upside-down coil. On the standing part, it performs nowhere near as well as the Adjustable Grip Hitch. I have not yet tried it on a vertical post.

JCS

My use for a Sailor's Gripping Hitch or this variant would probably be on a vertical pole only.  I'm not sure how the Adjustable Grip Hitch would be tied in that situation.  For a vertical pole, the Sailor's Gripping Hitch grips better than the Icicle Hitch, and this variant grips better than the Sailor's Gripping Hitch.

By the way, I'm not sure what you mean in your first sentence.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 11:07:38 PM by knot4u »

jcsampson

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2010, 12:01:33 AM »
Quote from: knot4u
"By the way, I'm not sure what you mean in your first sentence [, 'When tied on the standing part, it's an Adjustable Grip Hitch with an upside-down coil.']"

Thinking of the standing part as if it were a vertical pole, in this case, would mean having the standing part start from above and then form a bight to change direction and go up, because the diagram for the Mason Hitch requires that the standing part comes in from below.

Then, once made, you can turn the entire structure upside-down (so that the bight becomes the loop) and see the resemblance to the Adjustable Grip Hitch. But, you'll then notice that the coil itself of this nearly AGH is actually upside-down.

Quote
"I'm not sure how the Adjustable Grip Hitch would be tied in that situation."

You'd have to think of the pole as if it were a standing part and then make the AGH upside-down.

Quote
"For a vertical pole, the Sailor's Gripping Hitch grips better than the Icicle Hitch, and this variant grips better than the Sailor's Gripping Hitch."

I'm not surprised, because many of those ABOK hitches, while being quick and easy to make, grip poorly.

JCS

roo

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 02:21:31 AM »
Quote
"For a vertical pole, the Sailor's Gripping Hitch grips better than the Icicle Hitch, and this variant grips better than the Sailor's Gripping Hitch."

I'm not surprised, because many of those ABOK hitches, while being quick and easy to make, grip poorly.

JCS
???
I'm not going to comment on the factuality of the above statements, as it would require much testing under many different conditions, but neither of the particular hitches you are talking about are in ABOK.  
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 02:22:06 AM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Introducing a Variation of a "Sailor's Gripping Hitch"
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 02:43:49 AM »
Quote
"I'm not sure how the Adjustable Grip Hitch would be tied in that situation."

You'd have to think of the pole as if it were a standing part and then make the AGH upside-down.

Quote
"For a vertical pole, the Sailor's Gripping Hitch grips better than the Icicle Hitch, and this variant grips better than the Sailor's Gripping Hitch."

I'm not surprised, because many of those ABOK hitches, while being quick and easy to make, grip poorly.

JCS

http://plotus.dreamhosters.com/MasonHitch.jpg

In the Mason Hitch, the coils are going over the poll.  However, the working end is coming down OVER the coils.  This feature is different than an adjustable grip hitch.  So, the comparison to the Adjustable Grip Hitch is awkward.  I know the original poster mentions the Adjustable Grip Hitch in the original post.  However, the comparison is throwing me off and is lost on me.  In my testing with a vertical pole, I'm pleased that there is an improvement to the Sailor's Gripping Hitch, which is already pretty good.

Also, for vertical poles specifically, what hitch do you know about that's better than the Mason Hitch or the Sailor's Gripping Hitch?  You did say that those hitches grip poorly.

=====

I suppose you could tie a Klemheist hitch via wrapping a big end loop around the pole.  That's an (awkward) option, but does that grip a vertical pole better?  The problem with using a Klemheist in such a manner is that you have to feed the entire standing end through the loop once you wrap the loop around the pole.

I started a new thread to focus this discussion for my interests:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.new#new
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 03:15:40 AM by knot4u »