Author Topic: Image Archive Filling Up  (Read 14999 times)

skyout

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 11:57:01 PM »
I'm not an expert by any means, but I don't see much difference in selling a few select products when comparing the selling of back issues of the magazine. I would think as long as the proceeds go back into maintaining the site it would be legal. JMO I think it would help promote the art, craft and science of knotting by allowing prospective members that show an interest at the exhibitions at both international and regional levels to be able to get started right away with quality products being imediately available to them, as well as new members that find the forum on the web and join. I would have loved to have been able to see a list of supplies available here when I first joined the forum.

DerekSmith

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 04:44:37 PM »
My better half is a member of a dog re-homing charity.  They make a large part of their funds by selling goods to their members and it is completely accepted by the Charities Commission.

There is perhaps one major reason why the Guild will not involve itself in this sort of activity, and that is because it takes a lot of time from at least one person to run such a facility and I doubt that anyone in the Guild is prepared to put in the significant effort to pull it off.  My good lady has just spent the best part of three weeks preparing an 8 page catalogue of goodies on sale for the Christmas period and two other members spend most of their free time taking and servicing the orders.

Nothing stopping the Guild or the members from doing this as a means of producing additional funds - any takers???

Derek

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2008, 12:08:37 PM »
Now for uploading your image for the forum post. That is a subject that all Forum owners have to face, is how much space. I face it every day. So to solve the situation I had to set the forum to archive mode to every 90 days. This will create a complete archive with images that are uploaded as well. Now, if I know SMF forums they should have something simular and also have away to pull the archive back out of moth balls upon request. This should save you quite a bit of space and help you to keep the forums clean and sharp looking.

SMF, unfortunately, doesn't have any form of archive tool of the type you describe. What forum application are you using elsewhere?

Mel

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2008, 12:18:16 PM »
Finally catching up with this topic...

Given that you can buy a 1.5 terabyte hard drive today for about ?120 (that would be enough space for 30 years storage at the project rate of 50 megs per year), then instead of even starting to consider deleting our history, could we not ask the Guild to shell out ?120 (or even ?240 so we have a good backup) and give us the facility to create a really excellent Knotting image library spanning a serious period of time?

Storage is, as you say, relatively cheap. The issue, as I see it, isn't the storage, per se, but bringing that archive online so that's it's accessible to members all over the world in the same way that the forum's images are. You simply can't buy that level of storage capacity at the lower end of the hosting market. You'd need to consider self-hosting and that would cost more than 25 times the Guild's current hosting costs. And that's not taking into account the extra technical maintenance needed to run your own server. Or the cost of the kit in the first place.


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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2008, 12:21:50 PM »
Good morning, people.

One of the forum users ...
As I was the one that sent you that PM, not to get touchy here, but calling me a "user" just sounds bad to me. I may not be a member of the IGKT right now for personal reasons, but I still consider myself a member of the International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum. This forum I feel is great and has helped me in numerous ways and I have returned the favor with contributing posts hopefully that have helped others as well. Possibly you can find another term than "users" to describe myself and others. JMO

The Great Magnificent Contributor would work for me. Just kidding but user sounds like someone that only takes without giving in return or something. Thanks.

My apologies. In my line of work there are usually 2 groups - developers who make stuff and the people wot use the stuff (usually referred to as "the users"). I'll try to remember to use 'forum member' in future.

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 12:36:08 PM »
If the guild spends even 2 adult membership dues a year on disk space, they'll have effectively infinite space.

Two adult memberships (which is roughly what the Guild pays annually for web hosting) will currently purchase 1.5G of hosting space with 25G monthly bandwidth which I wouldn't describe as as 'infinite'. For that you'd need  Derek's suggestion of a couple of terabytes. As well as the forum, the hosting space has to accommodate the main web site, all back end admin tools and all mailboxes for the domain. Nevertheless, that's still a pretty good deal as the available space has recently been increased (which has allowed me to increase the storage space for forum images to 500MB).

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If the service hosting the guild's site is being stingy... a change may be in order.

The service isn't 'stingy'. It's actually very good and the Guild gets exactly what it pays for.


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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2008, 12:43:27 PM »
I promise I'll go away in a minute... ;)

But before I do, I just thought I'd remind everyone that the main web site has a Knotting Gallery that features member's work:

http://www.igkt.net/gallery.php

If members have their own online photo albums, we can also list those on the site:

http://www.igkt.net/links/photo-albums.php

Only we don't seem to have received any submissions for either section for quite a considerable time.

Mel


skyout

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2008, 04:26:36 AM »
I promise I'll go away in a minute... ;)

But before I do, I just thought I'd remind everyone that the main web site has a Knotting Gallery that features member's work:

http://www.igkt.net/gallery.php

If members have their own online photo albums, we can also list those on the site:

http://www.igkt.net/links/photo-albums.php

Only we don't seem to have received any submissions for either section for quite a considerable time.

Mel



Does this apply to members of the International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum that are not members of IGKT yet like me, as I can't seem to figure out how to post pics there?

Thanks Mel for the apology but it's really not necessary, I was just thinking out loud and I know there was no bad intent with it.

skyout

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2008, 12:19:09 PM »
Finally catching up with this topic...

Storage is, as you say, relatively cheap. The issue, as I see it, isn't the storage, per se, but bringing that archive online so that's it's accessible to members all over the world in the same way that the forum's images are. You simply can't buy that level of storage capacity at the lower end of the hosting market. You'd need to consider self-hosting and that would cost more than 25 times the Guild's current hosting costs. And that's not taking into account the extra technical maintenance needed to run your own server. Or the cost of the kit in the first place.


Sorry Mel, I don't know why, but I for some reason jumped to the conclusion that the Guild would already be operating its own server and only buying access and bandwidth.  I understand that if we are buying a whole hosting package then that is a totally different situation and although hard drive space is now very economic, the package suppliers are not so free at handing this economy on to their users.

Could I assume that we are not running out of bandwidth, just storage space, and if that is the case, do the providers offer a package which gives more storage without extra bandwidth?  Just because we are wanting to store more legacy images does not translate to an equivalent increase in traffic does it.

Given that the Guild should be starting to work towards building an online reference of knotomabilia, and that this will essentially require an ever growing requirement for storage space, what route would you suggest the Guild be going along?  Given that as users we are saying that we want access to more content and not restricting it, how would you as our Webmistress advise us to progress?

Skyout
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Does this apply to members of the International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum that are not members of IGKT yet like me, as I can't seem to figure out how to post pics there?

As I understand it, and please correct me Mel if I am wrong, but the Guild site is effectively closed to all of us, members of the Guild and the Forum alike.  To store images on the Guild server space would require you to send the file to Mel and for her to incorporate it into the website for you.  When composing a Forum post, it is unlikely that any of us will have had the forethought to have had the image uploaded to the Guild website in advance, so this is not really a practical solution to being able to attach image files straight into a post.

I find the easiest route to solving this problem is simply to make a free PBWiki at pbwiki.com and simply use it to put my iimage files onto the free storage space and then just link them into a post.  The main advantage being that I can put the image into the body of the post rather than just attach it at the end of the post.

For me though, the perfect solution would be for the Guild to make upload space available to any Forum or Guild member that lets me upload images directly into it like my PBWiki space does, so I could use the images within a post.  The really big advantage here is that the images would then all be being looked after by the Guild and we could be sure that they would be safeguarded for the future as long as the Guild continues to exist (and hopefully prosper)...  whereas today, if I close my PBWiki accounts, or if PBWiki go bankrupt, then all my images files will be lost and the links in the posts will be broken.

At some point in its development, the Guild will have to give some serious thought to this problem and decide how best to serve members both present and future.  Perhaps now is an appropriate time to do this, so your guidance Mel is going to be key for the future effectiveness of the Guild internet service.

Derek

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2008, 01:07:30 PM »
Does this apply to members of the International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum that are not members of IGKT yet like me

Originally, it was intended for Guild members only but perhaps in light of the fact that it has had very few submissions in the past year, IGKT's Web Admin might agree to let me open up a new sub-section for non-Guild forum members. I'll have a word with her about it.

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I can't seem to figure out how to post pics there?

Images are added by either myself or the Web Admin. It does mean a little more work but also means no spammers - which is always a Good Thing. If anyone does want to submit a photo, they should contact webadmin@igkt.net

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Thanks Mel for the apology but it's really not necessary, I was just thinking out loud and I know there was no bad intent with it.

It was a fair comment, though. I really need to stop and think before I type - especially on busy days.  :)

Mel

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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 02:26:32 PM »
Sorry Mel, I don't know why, but I for some reason jumped to the conclusion that the Guild would already be operating its own server and only buying access and bandwidth.

Maybe it's the professional quality of the web site that did it?  ;)

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Could I assume that we are not running out of bandwidth,

That's correct. I estimate we're only using about 10-15% of the allocated bandwidth.

 
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just storage space,

Since the most recent upgrade, even storage isn't such a pressing problem. We now have over 1 Gig of total space - which is why I was able to increase the forum image archive to 500mb the other day. Longer term, I may be able to increase it yet further but I'd like to keep a significant amount of space 'in hand' for future site developments for the time being.

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and if that is the case, do the providers offer a package which gives more storage without extra bandwidth?  Just because we are wanting to store more legacy images does not translate to an equivalent increase in traffic does it.

igkt.net is currently using the lowest package that their hosting company offers. There are 3 packages above this with the highest offering 6 Gig of space and 1 Gig monthly bandwidth allowance. The cost of the largest package is around 100ukp per year. So I think that, from a purely technical standpoint, there's plenty of room for manoeuvre. From a financial perspective, I assume it depends upon what the IGKT Council consider to be value-for-money in terms of investment. I imagine that they have many calls on fairly limited funds and, like every other non-profit organisation, they have to prioritise their financial outgoings. The web site and this forum is only going to be one of many outlets that they may want to support.

With respect to the bandwidth question, I appreciate what you mean but from a commercial hosting company's perspective, more space usually means more web-based resource with greater bandwidth demands. So the monthly bandwidth allowance tends to rise in direct proportion to the space allocated to each package. Offering these fixed packages is also probably more cost-effective than trying to provide 'mix and match' services which, in turn, keeps the overall price tag down.

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Given that the Guild should be starting to work towards building an online reference of knotomabilia, and that this will essentially require an ever growing requirement for storage space, what route would you suggest the Guild be going along?  Given that as users we are saying that we want access to more content and not restricting it, how would you as our Webmistress advise us to progress?

When/if the consumption of of resources provided by the current package exceed 50%, I'd recommend that the Council considers upgrading the hosting package. As it stands, we're not even half way there yet but, if that point is ever reached, I'd also suggest that the Council re-evaluate the site and this forum and develop a long term web strategy. Defining that strategy and the kinds of resources that might be required in the future would go a long way to determining what level of hosting would be needed and the likely annual cost.

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As I understand it, and please correct me Mel if I am wrong, but the Guild site is effectively closed to all of us, members of the Guild and the Forum alike.  To store images on the Guild server space would require you to send the file to Mel and for her to incorporate it into the website for you.

That's correct - well almost...

The photos are sent to the Web Admin who (I assume) confirms Guild membership and then forwards them to me for addition to the gallery. Sometimes with advice as to which sub-gallery would be most suitable as I am not a knottyer - although I've learnt a lot over the years. I now know what a chest becket is and what a turkshead looks like!

The web site isn't so much closed as not run via any content management system. All of the pages are currently handcoded and uploaded via FTP but this could be changed if necessary.

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When composing a Forum post, it is unlikely that any of us will have had the forethought to have had the image uploaded to the Guild website in advance, so this is not really a practical solution to being able to attach image files straight into a post.

I agree. To be honest, I was just hoping to stimulate some renewed interest in the gallery as a potential public image archive.

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I find the easiest route to solving this problem is simply to make a free PBWiki at pbwiki.com and simply use it to put my iimage files onto the free storage space and then just link them into a post.  The main advantage being that I can put the image into the body of the post rather than just attach it at the end of the post.

I'd also considered the possibility of adding a wiki to the web site but the biggest stumbling block was the fact that even a wiki entails a technical learning curve. You have to learn/follow the syntax for that particular wiki application - which tends deter a lot of, otherwise non-technical, people from adding their contributions. So I'm a little unsure how successful it would be.

Another option might be a blog like Wordpress which has the added option of a Word-like WYSIWYG interface for those who don't want to learn special syntax rules.

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For me though, the perfect solution would be for the Guild to make upload space available to any Forum or Guild member that lets me upload images directly into it like my PBWiki space does, so I could use the images within a post.  The really big advantage here is that the images would then all be being looked after by the Guild and we could be sure that they would be safeguarded for the future as long as the Guild continues to exist (and hopefully prosper)... 

Wikis, blogs or even image galleries like Coppermine are available for free, so the cost of the application isn't an issue. But the management of exactly who has access to what could be (Guild members only or Forum+ Guild?). There is no online database of Guild members and creating it would incur a cost. Linking that into a 3rd party application like a wiki would also be costly as it would, almost certainly, have to be custom built (usually the most expensive of development routes). Ditto trying to link this forum's membership into another system. The alternative is to use manual moderation of access/upload privileges but that can be very time-consuming and volunteer time can often be a limited resource too.

In my experience, what tends to limit development of new web facilities isn't technical constraints but limited finances and time.

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whereas today, if I close my PBWiki accounts, or if PBWiki go bankrupt, then all my images files will be lost and the links in the posts will be broken.

Yes - that's always an issue - especially with a free service.

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At some point in its development, the Guild will have to give some serious thought to this problem and decide how best to serve members both present and future.  Perhaps now is an appropriate time to do this, so your guidance Mel is going to be key for the future effectiveness of the Guild internet service.

I think it's important to bear in mind that the Web/Internet is a relatively new field and that the Guild has to provide for the needs of all its members. Not just those on here who may represent only a small fraction of its member base. We haven't yet reached the point where everyone automatically turns to the computer for information - especially within a craft that is so rooted in practical, hands-on, methodology. As such, I personally think that the Guild is right to adopt a fairly conservative attitude towards web-based resources. They should be just one of many potential routes open to members and non-members alike and shouldn't, as yet, be favoured over and above more traditional methods of promotion. Longer term, this may change but, for now, small, well-considered steps offer the least risk of disenfranchising some members.

At the end of the day, the Guild is a member organisation and, I assume, has well-tried avenues for members to express what they would like to see in the way of future resources. If a Council member approaches me with a new development idea, I'll do my best to find the most cost-effective technical solution for consideration.


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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2008, 10:39:21 PM »
OK, I wasn't supposed to be on the 'net tonight, except to check the mail and delete the latest spammer attempting to join  :)

Briefly:

As far as membership goes, the website serves a dual purpose: it allows non-members to mix with members and view what we put on about the Guild, and also it gives members a jumping-off point (or jumping-in point) and view what we put on about the Guild, and so on, and so forth...

The point raised about membership is a valid one, and I too was a forum member for a year before I could afford membership.  It is membership that pays for this site.  That being said, we do have an obligation to "Promote the art, craft and science of knotting, its study and practice" (quote from home page), and that makes no distinction between members and non-members as such.

(Grand flourish of the mouse)  I hereby announce the creation of a new page for image uploads, specifically by non-members, courtesy of Mel's suggestion.  Form an orderly queue on the left, please, and if you are or have become a member since you posted an image you want transferred from the forum (or anywhere else on the 'net) please form the queue on the right.

Or just send me the details in an email, marked for the appropriate destination.  I'll compile them and then send them on to Mel in easy batch.  Please bear in mind I'm having to work online at present, as my own pc is down, and I'm borrowing my husband's laptop.  How stuff will do going through the online email I'm not 100% sure.  If there is a limit on the mail box (which is fairly empty at present) then you may get a bounce.  Please be patient, and try again the next day.

The address to use is webadmin@igkt.net

Oh, and while I'm at it, if anyone wants to put up some more information for the members' website links, feel free to do that at the same time.  Barry Brown's has just been updated.

Regards

Glenys
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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 09:11:31 AM »
Just as a PS:

Mel, what size of file/pixels, etc do you want to specify for uploads?  I usually make all mine between 500-1000 pixels on the greatest axis at home.  1500 pixels for really detailed stuff.

Regards

Glenys
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Re: Image Archive Filling Up
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2008, 12:08:46 PM »
Mel, what size of file/pixels, etc do you want to specify for uploads?

The upload limit per file is currently 300K which should allow for an image around 1000px wide. However, I usually suggest that source photos are much larger. Say up to 1meg/2000px. That gives me the opportunity to clean photos up if necessary - lighten darker images, fade back busy backgrounds, sharpen the details on the worked piece itself and generally try to present the best possible image of the work.

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I usually make all mine between 500-1000 pixels on the greatest axis at home.  1500 pixels for really detailed stuff.

1000-1500px should be OK - especially at the upper end.

Mel