Author Topic: Top ten most useful knots.  (Read 125062 times)

roo

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2010, 04:33:51 PM »

We have once before been over a loop based on the Carrick Bend, the Wave Loop, which is easily tied with a method that resembles the bowline. It is more easily tied than many within the Bowline family, as the way of tying imprints its form in the movements; its choreography makes it as easy to tie as a bowline, but it is not only more secure, but also more easily untied.

I stopped using the (Double) Carrick Bend many years ago after seeing that quite a few more compact bends were significantly more secure than the (Double) Carrick Bend.  Another reason to avoid it is that if you make the wrong version, the security drops from mediocre to horrible.

In a loop form the Carrick structure performs worse, as those inferior forms show their face via the various loading that can show up in a loop structure. 

General Loading Examples:

*Standing Part Loaded & Both Legs Loaded.

*Standing Part Loaded & One Leg Mostly Loaded (as during swinging on a rough surface).

*Standing Part Unloaded & Legs Loaded (as when something tries to expand the loop).

*Free End Snagged & Any of the Previously Noted Conditions.

*Free End Snagged & Only Standing Part Loaded.
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Transminator

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2010, 05:14:40 PM »
For me, the Zeppelin and the butterfly bend remain the royal couple of bends (with zeppelin the king and butterfly its queen)
Using the hybrid method, I can easily tie the butterfly in the dark, but have not tried with gloves or numb fingers. I will give it a go if I ever happen to get into that sort of situation and think it wont be a problem. 
In case I do need to tie a bend in the dark (and with gloves and with numb fingers and with wet rope) and do not manage to bend ropes with either one, I can still fall back on the inkanyezi method of tying the carrick bend or simply bend the ropes with two interlocked bowlines e.g.

The zeppelin as a loop is an excellent knot for the simple reasons of security (no safety finish required), ease of tying and untying.
The simple bowline is a good all-round fixed loop with adequate security for most non-critical tasks. If the application is critical, the zeppelin loop is a candidate together with the yosemite bowline and the good old figure 8.

Interlocked overhand knots always have to be undone in a more complicated way than those that don't have any overhand.

Both the zeppelin and the butterfly are easily untied. The former exceptionally so (even after high load).

knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2010, 07:11:40 PM »
Regarding the Butterfly Bend, wearing gloves while using the hybrid method is super easy (easier than Carrick Bend).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4
That's the loop, but modify that for the bend.  It's so easy that it's not even fair.

Regarding the Yosemite Bowline, I have read (not based on my experience) that a Yosemite finish does not add security to a Bowline.  Again, that's what I read, not my experience.

Anyway, for the last couple of days, I have been trying my best to make the Carrick Bend one of my favorites.  It's just not there.  However, I will say this:  when tying neck lanyards out of 550 paracord, I do now prefer the Carrick Bend over the Butterfly Bend.  The Carrick Bend is symmetrical, and lanyards are half decorative.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 07:19:37 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2010, 07:38:27 PM »
I am surprised that you keep telling me what to do,
???
Where did I tell you what to do?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 07:38:59 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2010, 07:57:38 PM »
  Wrong ! There are bowline variants, like the "mirrored bowlines" I had referred to previously, that are more secure, even than the variants of the Zeppelin loop.

Which variant of the bowline and which variant of the Zeppelin Loop?

Am I to infer that you are going to finally start testing knots, rather than just taking pictures?
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knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2010, 08:30:51 PM »
Zeppelin Bend is king.  Now, about some others...

I do like the final product of the Ashley Bend better than the Butterfly Bend.  However, the Butterfly Bend has real, practical advantages.  The Butterfly Bend is basically known if you know the Butterfly Loop, which many people know.  Also, the Butterfly Bend is easier to tie correctly.  It's easier (for me) to mess up the Ashley Bend.  I'd rather have a correctly tied Butterfly Bend that's 95% as good as the Ashley Bend, rather than tying the Ashley Bend incorrectly.

EDIT:  As discussed below, I was able to jam the Ashley Bend.  I will not be using this bend if I need to untie the rope.  Because of its tendency to jam, the Ashley Bend may be useful as a fishing knot.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 10:26:56 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2010, 09:09:58 PM »
 I'd rather have a correctly tied Butterfly Bend that's 95% as good as the Ashley Bend, rather than tying the Ashley Bend incorrectly.

  And there is one more spot in my queen s face, do not forget. :) There are two variants of the Ashley s bend, depending upon the twist of the tails just before they exit the knot s nub, as described in (1) and (2), and analysed in (3).
That might be viewed as a disadvantage of the Ashley s bend - in comparison to the  Butterfly bend- too.

1)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=cccb55c76f162ec461f0ff528d1386a4&topic=1446.msg12818#msg12818
2)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=cccb55c76f162ec461f0ff528d1386a4&topic=1446.msg12900#msg12900
3)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=cccb55c76f162ec461f0ff528d1386a4&topic=1446.msg12867#msg12867

Further, there's a slight variation within your (1) above!  After dressing, the tails can lie either side-by-side (as in your pic) or on top of each other.  It's hard to explain in words, but if you play with the knot for awhile, you should know what I mean.  The difference is significant enough that the performance of the bend changes.  For example, one dressing is easier to untie than the other.

To be fair, the Butterfly Bend can also be dressed in 2 or 3 different ways.

EDIT:  As discussed below, I was able to jam the Ashley Bend.  I will not be using this bend if I need to untie the rope.  Because of its tendency to jam, the Ashley Bend may be useful as a fishing knot.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 10:30:47 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2010, 10:13:27 PM »
I don't think I'll spend more time on the Ashley Bend.  I now remember why the Ashley Bend is NOT one of my favorites.  Awhile ago, I was able to jam the Ashley Bend.  I don't care to have it happen again.  I should have put this property in my notes awhile ago so that I didn't have to revisit this issue.  Jamming is an important consideration because I likely will be pulling something heavy if I use a bend.

David Delaney also performed tests on jamming of bends:
http://davidmdelaney.com/jam-testing/jam-testing-several-bends.html
He found that the Zeppelin, the Butterfly, or the Carrick do NOT have a tendency to jam.  In contrast, he was able to jam the Ashley and the Hunter rock hard 10 out of 10 times.  Test out the Ashley Bend yourself.  You should find that the Ashley Bend just keeps getting tighter and tighter.  In contrast, the Zeppelin, the Butterfly and the Carrick reach a certain tightness and then stop getting tighter.

The good news is that, because of their tendency to jam, I will be testing the Ashley Bend and the Hunter Bend in fishing line.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 01:48:11 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #113 on: November 04, 2010, 07:27:32 AM »
It is at times amusing, but with repetition here, distressing to the point
of being hard to read, some arm-chair opinions on esp. the most userful
knots.

I have yet to hear of any actual rope-using application that would
employ many of the sets of knots put forth here.  I can assure you
that the seemingly vogue Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend is extraordinarily
rare bird in the wild (though I would see it happy with Alaskan crabbers,
who employ the Carrick bend); there is some rumor of favor among the
arborists with some posts.

And Knot4U continues to fish with a Zeppelin and eschew his somehow
jammed #1452 ... .  Well, good luck with that.


I'm thinking of the daily duties where something "most useful" should
be expected to be found.  Hmmm, tying up plastic bags (of produce,
of trash) will see Overhand knots and SquaREefs (but I'd luv to see
you "Zeppelin/Butterly" zealots go at it with those knots!).  Shoes
are done with the slipped SquaREef (but there are some nifty securings
to that), or Granny (ditto).  A commercial fisherman's work uses what
could be seen as much half-hitching, with Overhands, Sheet bends,
and the Fisherman's knot --which he won't replace w/Rosendahl's
even (or esp.!) if you put it into some regulation.

Cavers, rockclimbers, arborists, construction workers, ... :  I don't
see them adopting these armchair "most useful" knots, for the
most part (of course, some they do use).

Here's a photo of one lobster boats floats tied to the rail.
Do you think they'd ever use a Sailor's hitch or Anchor bend
vice the clove?  --perhaps the latter, tied to the float, but not
to the rail: that wants a quickly tied, simple knot.  And the 2nd is
a conch-pot bridle --Overhands in three places (eye & two stoppers).

--dl*
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Sweeney

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #114 on: November 04, 2010, 10:11:32 AM »

Do you think they'd ever use a Sailor's hitch or Anchor bend
vice the clove?  --perhaps the latter, tied to the float, but not
to the rail: that wants a quickly tied, simple knot. 


I've seen the ground line hitch used (on private motor cruisers usually) rather than a clove (which I agree is more common) - often slipped. I like it because it's quick and easy to tie but I agree with Dan; if anyone asks me for a secure bend in a non-critical situation (and for the vast majority of people bends rarely are critical) I offer the fisherman's knot as its very easy to remember and tie and difficult to tie so badly that it will come undone (or if it does it drops apart at the start) and most users are not bothered about cutting it off when necessary. For a fixed loop, the perfection loop. I think we do tend to focus on the extreme uses of knots sometimes rather than simple practicality - nothing wrong with trying to find the Holy Grail of bends etc but I find myself talking to the majority who have trouble tying shoelaces!

Barry

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #115 on: November 04, 2010, 12:04:52 PM »
I too agree with Dan and Sweeney on this, and there is of course a slight difference between the knots I teach and the knots I actually use myself. i forgot to mention the simple overhands, which I always include when I teach knots. The bends go right with it, Fisherman's made up of two overhands. But the practical bends that I recommend are the sheet bends, single and double, and for those that have difficulty to remember which way the end should point, bending with two bowlines, which is a good method, whether right- or lefthanded.

So there is an interpretation problem for the question; the most useful for people other than me, or my own most useful ones. i don't have to tie a bend very often, just a few times per year, and I surely want it to be more easily opened than a fisherman's. My bend of choice is the carrick bend, because I can tie it correctly in a consistent way, and just as easily as I tie a sheet bend, and it is more rapidly tied than two bowlines. That practise of course is not everyone's. I haven't seen the carrick bend in use around here by anyone but me and my best friend. And given the rare occasions a bend would be needed at all, I prefer that others would use two bowlines rather than mistying a more esoteric knot like the carrick bend or Rosendahl.

So my list of knots would be different if I make a list of knots to teach in navigation class.
1. Overhand and its use as a bend
2. Fig.8 stopper
2. Half hitch
3. Two half hitches
4. Clove hitch
5. Bowline (as a loop and linked as a bend)
6. Belaying methods with round turns fig8 turns and backhand turns ended with HH
7. Sheet bends (because they are required by the board) and the related Becket hitch
8. Making a coil and finishing with my own method resembling "fireman's"
9. Tying down a load with Trucker's hitch.
10 On top of those the Butterfly loop and my mooring methods including it.

But that list is partly because of requirements for passing a test. My own preferred bend is not in it, but the bend that I prefer that others would use, two bowlines.

Point ten is one where I have met a lot of resistance from people that have been using other methods for a lifetime; even a person on this board tried to convince me that the more "normal" method of restraining movement should be superior. It is rather difficult to introduce improvement to old patterns that are contraproductive. And of course I have to agree with xarax in the post above.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 06:24:14 PM by Inkanyezi »
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[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #116 on: November 04, 2010, 01:50:09 PM »
Yes, as a teacher, when there is a standard to follow, which diverts from my own, I have to apply double standards.

The pupils in these classes will have to pass a test, and there are certain requirements that I cannot side-step. I have to teach a set of knots included in the test.

One of these knots, the bowline, serves well as a bend when you tie one to another. There's no sense in encumbering pupils with an esoteric extra knot that I prefer, when for them, it is probably safer to use the one that they must know, and to use an adaption of it. The Carrick Bend surely is a good knot, and also the Zeppelin/Rosendahl, but I don't want to add to confusion, so I follow the KISS principle. Put a bowline into another bowline, and there's your bend. i would not hesitate to use that myself if it were not that for me, the Carrick Bend is simpler to tie and untie. For the pupil, it would be unnecessary encumbrance. I do not teach dangerous practice, but safe practice.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 02:06:27 PM by Inkanyezi »
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[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #117 on: November 04, 2010, 03:07:06 PM »
   I have to... apply double standards.
   The pupils.have to... pass a test,
   I have to... teach a set of knots included in the test.

   Nobody has to do anything, in a free society and in times of piece, I believe. You choose to do something, and they choose to do something, too.
   So, to me it sounds as you prefer to be a good employee of a board than a good teacher of knots, and your pupils prefer to pass a test than to learn the truth about knots.

It's a lot simpler really. Of course it is a choice, and if the pupils shall pass the test, they must learn a few knots, that are used on board. One of these, the bowline, is a better choice for bending two ropes, because it is used on a daily basis, so it is remembered. Bends are seldom used; I use a bend a few times per year. it would not enhance safety if I tought the Rosendahl/Zeppelin, because it would be soon forgotten, if ever learned. The bowline will not be forgotten, and the bending of two ropes with a bowline into another bowline is a sound practice which works for the purpose.

As a teacher, I cannot give a rats ass about which knot is the most perfect one. I am only concerned about safety, and if safety is accomplished well enough with one of the essential knots that the pupil must know, that's the one I go with. If I tried to teach the Rosendahl, Carrick or Butterfly bend instead of simply combining two bowlines, that would not serve these people. Of course anyone can learn those knots on their own and find them reliable, but it does not fit into navigation class.

Safe has other connotations than safety of the knot itself when tied correctly and well dressed. Most people in the navigation class would not benefit from adding umpteen different practices with just as many different knots. For those that want anything more in depth, those are available, but I would not try to push them on people on a regular basis. The "double standard" is merely the difference between a standard that must be learned for the pupil to pass the test, and what I would use myself for my own convenience. I think it would not serve the pupil well to mess it up with a host of other knots that in essence are not really needed. The caveat is that trying to apply something that you don't do on a daily basis may fail, and it might fail fatally. That's why the linking of two bowlines is safer in a pinch than trying to make some esoteric knot that might be needed once or twice a year.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 03:07:42 PM by Inkanyezi »
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Sweeney

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #118 on: November 04, 2010, 04:01:06 PM »

  That is wrong ! :) The Zeppelin bend is not an "esoteric" knot ...
 

Sorry but according to my dictionary esoteric is exactly what it is. Perhaps we would like people to be more aware of its properties, symmetry etc but at the moment it is only known to those who have either studied a knot book (after ABOK!) or who have seen it tied - I have never seen it used "in the wild" and it is definitely not memorable even as the "b & q" knot compared to say an overhand bend (or EDK) or a square knot whatever their merits or otherwise. And although one may appreciate its symmetry  and prettiness the fact that the ends are at right angles is irritating to many people I have shown it to - beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Barry

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #119 on: November 04, 2010, 05:27:21 PM »
  I have yet to hear of any actual rope-using application that would
employ many of the sets of knots put forth here.  I can assure you
that the seemingly vogue Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend is extraordinarily
rare bird in the wild...
  
   I'm thinking of the daily duties where something "most useful" should
be expected to be found.  ...
 
    So what ? :)
   It is at times amusing that people turn to the wildness, to the popular, to the oriental, to the occult, to find something supposedly unknown, hidden, or lost, from western civilization...I hope you will not search for the most "useful" knots in the UFOs !  :)

You have a most peculiar mis-reading : I very much looked for "most useful"
among --imagine (or just READ)-- things actually USED; and I looked for
uses for the novel or vogue knots some are putting forth as most useful
--tellingly, devoid of the uses for them.

Quote
 I have to inform you that science is put forward by arm-chair thinkers...

Ah, so now its your turn to do the telling?  Well, if you're seeing much
science in these posts there must be some kind of light (maybe not of stars)
in you eyes.  I think that astrology might be more apt a likening, or religion:
all bow down to the Butterfly!

Quote
Actual applications are often performed poorly or wrongly by the "professionals".
And it takes time for people "in the wild" to learn and adapt the best solutions provided
by the arm-chair scientists and thinkers. Also, people are driven to poor or wrong solutions
because the every day hunt for effectiveness, at all costs, dictate to them to follow the fast,
easy, but dangerous path. And, please, do not use the commercial fishermen, especially
the Alaska crabbers
, with their 5% mortality rate, as paradigms of professionals who do
their work as they do it, because they know better than arm chair thinkers...

This is nonsense, mostly : behaviors evolve from some rub & change wrought by
the applications --bad ones tell and are lost.  That isn't a purely effective method
to betterment, but it can be simply seen (barring star-gazing blindness) that much
of what is done in knotting by regular users works for various reasons,
and a bend such as Rosendahl's (or esp. that more symmetric like knot) has no
value.  --regular use being joining ends of binding cords as bits are added to
the stuff on the needle, or of joining groundlines (if not splice-able, such as
the kernmantle conch-pot longlines are not (photos attached), for which the
fancy novel knots offer nothing desirable and are less easily made, to boot.

The gratuitous remark about fisherman safety is that, because their safety
issues come from the nature of their environment and the demands of
the industry (coupled with some loss of reason associated w/testosterone  ;D
and --alas-- use of drugs) ; they aren't injured because knots fail, and they
really do care that the 800# pots w/crabs set in the deep are retrieved.
Here, Rosendahl's knot I think would serve equally well as the Carrick,
although with its adjacent ends the latter enables a further securing by
a tape wrap, for assurance.


Quote
People are killed because of the daily hunt for profit, because of ignorance, because of bad education.

And there are also cases of rather comical arm-chair inventions going
sorely awry.


Quote
If we really wish to study the truth, we should better follow the science, not the so-called
 "common wisdom", look at the libraries, not in the plastic bags and trash depositories !

???
Science has verifiable, repeatable experiments; it has collected observations
(field work --you need to elevate your duff out of the armchair for this) as
as fuel for building theories; it has an iterative process of trial & error, too.
Religion has all the faith in some posited glory, and finding *facts*
to fall in line, ignoring the rest.

--dl*
====

ps :  My keys cord (holds a couple rings) ends are joined with Rosendahl's
 bend, nicely secured with the *mushroomed* ends at opposite sidesc qua
 stoppers, for years now.  (But some play cord of 3/16-4/16" (5mm) soft nylon
solid braid freed itself from the knot in a day or so.)