Author Topic: Top ten most useful knots.  (Read 124107 times)

Transminator

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 144
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2010, 09:41:28 AM »
I posted these you tube videos to demonstrate:

water bowline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyJgvmuwSo
One of the problems with starting with a clove hitch, is that it's very easy to get the wrong version of the water bowline.

mmh, is there another one?
or do you mean the double bowline?

I myself find the methods I presented for tying the water and the double bowline less error prone though, but that could be me.
I always had trouble with the other methods, which I found less memorable and slow to tie.
But all my post are to be understood as just offers. Some people might find them useful, others don't.


I might watch the other videos later.  So sloooow.

Are you working with a dial up line?
Broadband for internet is just a delight. I don't want to be without it anymore.


And finally the butterfly loop and bend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBNtlHFNKw

I prefer the twist method to the so-called hybrid method for the loop.  The hybrid method is not very memorable, and if you reach around the wrong rope (an easy error) you get a knot that looks like butterfly loop but is very much inferior to a butterfly loop :o.  This would be a less serious issue if the mistake weren't so similar in appearance to the butterfly loop, so it could be corrected before being accidentally used.

As far as the bend, I've always found the structure elementary enough not to need a developed method.  It could be just me.

I hear what you are saying.
I personally never had any problem of getting either the water bowline, double bowline or the butterfly knot wrong using the presented methods.
I just wanted to show how I tie them and some people out there might find them useful. Not everybody of course.
All my posts are considered to be offers only. I would not claim that these are the best methods.
They are merely the ones I chose for myself for various reasons.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 12:16:01 PM by Transminator »

jsc

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2010, 08:38:17 AM »
I had occasion to need to tie a knot recently, and wanted to find the "right" one. I found igkt, and a few days later I was sitting around tying and retying as many different knots as I could. I'd like to offer some thoughts from the viewpoint of someone new to knots. Apologies if this all seems old hat to the more experienced members. This is what I've determined after a short period of trying to sort out the menagery. I have not learned all the knots out there yet, just the most common ones that get a lot of discussion.

My first impression is that the advantage to many of the "classic" knots is that they are easy to remember and quick to tie, but that many of them are subsumed in their primary role by other, better knots. They are important to learn because they are often reused in other knots.

Bends:
Reef "bend" is universally maligned.
Sheet bend is said to be insecure, unless tied as the double sheet bend.
The interlocked overhand knots class of bends (Zeppelin, Hunter's, Ashley's, Alpine Butterfly) are well thought of, with most people preferring Zeppelin or Alpine Butterfly, the other two being more prone to jams. The Alpine Butterfly Bend has the advantage of having an easy "round the hand" method of forming it, while Zeppelin may be marginally more secure or harder to jam.
Carrick's bend is well thought of and compact, but may be easier to tie incorrectly and end up with something that is not a Carrick's bend, and cannot be easily determined to be incorrect by inspection. The Alpine Butterfly and Zeppelin bends both have distinct "looks" so you can tell if you did something wrong.

Hitches:
All the "classic" hitches (two half hitches, clove hitch, etc.) seem problematic as standalone hitches, with the possible exception of the slipped buntline when a compact hitch is desired.
The notableknotindex website advocates the Sailor's Hitch, which seems ideal for hitching to a large diameter round object, like a pole or a rope.
The Rolling, or Magnus, Hitch is quick and easy for lateral pulling, but comes in three variations. The Gripping Sailor's Hitch seems better in every other way.
The Taut-Line Hitch (also in three variations, as it uses the Rolling Hitch)  is an easy adjustable loop hitch, but subsumed by the Adjustable Grip Hitch.
The Trucker's "Hitch" seems useful, but seems more of a technique than an actual knot; the loop(s) used can be formed in any number of ways.

Loops in the Bight:
The Alpine Butterfly Loop is easy to tie and very popular. Figure eight in the bight is often used by climbers apparently, but it seems to me it takes up more rope and is more prone to jamming. I have seen an argument by cavers against the use of the Alpine Butterfly Loop when tied using the "two twists" method, as incorrectly forming the loops can create the False Butterfly, which is hazardous. The danger of mistying it in a more subtle fashion using the "hybrid" method is discussed immediately above in this thread.

End Loops:
Figure 8 as an end loop is widely used in climbing, easy to form unless you are tying the "rethreaded" version, jam prone.
Alpine Butterfly Loop is liked as an end loop. David Delaney's web site advocates the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop as slightly less jammable, which puts the working and standing parts in different parts of the loop than the standard Alpine Butterfly tied as an end loop.
The Zeppelin Loop is similar, perhaps marginally better. Both Alpine Butterfly Loops and the Zeppelin Loop require some practice to be able to tie quickly, but can generally be tied slowly if you forget how by starting with an overhand loop, staring at it, and remembering the structure of the knot.
There is, of course, the Bowline and its variants (Water, Double, etc.). Easy, compact, usually reliable. As an aside, I found that when practicing the "lightning method" of forming the bowline using a collapsing slip knot, you must take care to push the bight through the loop from the standing part, not the working part (or else you get an Eskimo, or Sideways, Bowline), and you must insert the working end through the bight in the proper directly (or else you end up with the Dutch Marine (Cowboy) Bowline). Both of these are described by various sources as being either less or more secure than the standard version. It is harder to get it wrong using the standard rabbit-hole-tree method.

In keeping with the subject of this thread, I'll count up the most "useful" of the knots above. I count as separate the "same" knot if they are tied using different methods, and technically different knots the same if they are or can be tied using substantially the same method.

1. Double Sheet Bend (an easy bend)
2. Carrick's Bend (near ideal bend)
3. Slipped Buntline Hitch (an easy hitch)
4. Zeppelin Bend using "b and q" method (easy to learn, near ideal bend)
5. Zeppellin Bend and Zeppelin Loop starting with overhand knot method (alternative technique necessary for the loop)
6. Alpine Butterfly Loop in the Bight, and Bend, tied round the hand (easy to learn, near ideal bight loop and bend)
7. Alpine Butterfly End Loop, or alternatively the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop as described by David Delaney, both tied starting with overhand knot (near ideal end loop)
8. Sailor's Hitch, and Gripping Sailor's Hitch (good round pole hitch, near ideal lateral hitch)
9. Adjustable Grip Hitch (good adjustable hitch)
10. Figure 8 as stopper, bight loop, end loop, bend (versatile and easy)

For me, all of the above is rather theoretical since the only time I ever tie a knot in something that is not a practice rope is to attach a kite string or hitch my dog to a post. I don't even tie shoelaces any more. Please let me know what you think.

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2010, 06:08:36 PM »
JSC,

Those are some good thoughts there.  I agree with 5 or 6 of your knots.

I'm curious as to why you have the redundancy.  For the Butterfly and the Zeppelin, I don't consider a different tying method to be a different knot.  I would list one knot plus all the tying methods in one slot.  Also, the Carrick's Bend is somewhat redundant because you listed 3 other bends that have highly desirable properties.  Also, the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing, while the other bends you mentioned do not.

You don't have a dedicated binding knot (e.g., Square).  A think a person's top ten should be able to satisfy substantially most rope tasks.  As a regular guy who doesn't tie knots for my job, I find myself tying a binding knot more than any other knot.  For example, I use a double slipped Square (aka, bow) to tie my shoes.

You don't have the Bowline Loop in your top ten.  For an end loop, the Zeppelin or the Butterfly is your preference I guess.  As far as I know, each requires a pre-knot.  That drawback can be problematic in many situations.  The Bowline and Double Bowline do not require pre-knots.

I like most of your knots for my top 10.  However, I don't have the Carrick's Bend, the Sailor's Hitch, the Gripping Sailor's Hitch or the Figure 8.  For the Carrick Bend, there are at least 3 other bends that I prefer (Zeppelin, Butterfly and Double Sheet).  Including the Carrick would be a waste of a slot for me.  For the Sailor's Hitch, there are at least 5 other similar hitches that I prefer.  For the Gripping Sailor's Hitch, there are about 5 other similar hitches that I prefer.  For the Figure 8 stopper, I find myself tying a Stevedore, an Ashley's or an Overhand instead.  I figure if I'm going to make extra turns past the Overhand, then I might as well go with a knot that doesn't jam on me (Stevedore).

Those are just my personal preferences.  Of course, your mileage may vary.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 08:56:08 PM by knot4u »

jsc

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #93 on: November 01, 2010, 12:49:41 AM »
Hi, knot4u. Thanks for your feedback! I list the "same" knots separately when different forms (loop vs bend) either call for or require a different way of tying the knot. I realize this isn't technically accurate, but from the point of view of someone learning knots, the overhand knot method of tying the Alpine Butterfly Loop on the end, or the Zeppelin Loop is so different from the usual method of tying the Alpine Butterfly Loop or Zeppelin Bend that it's nearly like learning two different knots, and you can't use the latter for the former (although of course you could just learn the first method and use it all the time). On the other hand, tying the Alpine Butterfly Bend around the hand is so similar to the Alpine Butterfly Loop that I would just lump them in together, as far as knot study goes.

Also, the Carrick's Bend is somewhat redundant because you listed 3 other bends that have highly desirable properties.  Also, the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing, while the other bends you mentioned do not.

I agree it's redundant. It just seems so good that I threw it in. You say it tends to capsize easily; what do you mean by that? I thought the compact form you get once you've created the "flat" figure and put it under load is actually fine, and expected, as in step 8 here: http://www.animatedknots.com/carrick/index.php

You don't have a dedicated binding knot (e.g., Square).  A think a person's top ten should be able to satisfy substantially most rope tasks.  As a regular guy who doesn't tie knots for my job, I find myself tying a binding knot more than any other knot.  For example, I use a double slipped Square (aka, bow) to tie my shoes.

True, and in fact, I never or extremely rarely expect to have to tie any of the knots I've learned so far. My list is, I guess, a list for some hypothetical version of me who climbs mountains or sails wooden ships, or otherwise works with rope. If it had been a list for my own practical use, it would have been filled with things like the reef knot, the overhand knot, the full and half windsor tie knots, a loose two half hitches for tying up the dog to a post, etc. In terms of practicality, manly me the trucker/sailor/arborist/caver has vastly different requirements than real life me which needs to close off the bread bag. I guess a separate list composed solely of "best of breed knots" for everyday tasks would also be an interesting exercise, as the information is scattered around on various "how to tie your tie" and "improved shoelace knots" sites. I found it interesting that the four-in-the-hand knot for tying your necktie is the same as the buntline hitch, which now makes it easier for me to remember.

What are some situations which prevent the use of a pre-knot? I'm curious.

Also, I'd be interested in hearing which hitches you prefer over Sailor's and Gripping Sailor's, so I can learn those too. I included Sailor's because it is so similar to the Gripping Sailor's, and I included that one because roo's site praised its virtues as a lateral pull knot.

Thanks for listing your preferred stoppers, I'll look into those. As I said, at this point all this is mostly an intellectual exercise, barring an unexpected turn of fate which has me hauling on lines on an 18th century frigate.

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #94 on: November 01, 2010, 01:45:18 AM »
JCS, people have their favorites and are reluctant to change, except if they make the change themselves.  I'm one of these people, and these are just my highly opinionated thoughts...  :)

I understand your thought process about these being fantasy man knots, but I still think you should work at least one binding knot in there somewhere!  Also, what's wrong with having the Overhand or Windsor in your top ten?  Your reasoning made sense to me, and I can respect your perspective.  The main reason I don't have the Overhand in my top ten is because I put the Half Hitch and the Square on my list, and so that fills my allotted quota for "everyday" knots.

The Sailor's Hitch is a decent knot, but I just don't have the love affair that some people have with it.  Before the Sailor's Hitch, I'm more likely to use a Groundline, a Snuggle, a Vibration-proof, a Boom, a Slipped Buntline, a Siberian, a Halter or a Pile.
  
Before I tie a Gripping Sailor's Hitch, I'm more likely to tie a Klemheist, a Gripping Half Hitch (new creation), an Icicle Cow (new creation) or others.  None of these hitches loosen up when I shake the standing end.  See here:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg13661#msg13661
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg13765#msg13765
The Klemheist may be inconvenient to tie in some situations, but I will make an effort because this knot outperforms most friction hitches in my experience. 


Some situations that make a pre-knot inconvenient include the following:
-Hauling or anchoring anything where the rope is already around the object (this happens to me a lot)
-Using one hand (a one-handed Bowline is easy, while a one-handed Zeppelin Loop is not easy, etc.)
-Making a loop where I don't have a clue where on the rope I want the dressing to be
-An end loop that I want to tie quickly on the fly
-An end loop where the standing end is loaded while tying (e.g., accidentally letting go before tying the Zeppelin Loop could mean a jammed Overhand knot)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 11:53:23 PM by knot4u »

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2010, 12:44:03 AM »
/.../ the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing /.../
Sorry to see that you have misunderstood that great knot so badly. Forgive me for going OT with this one.

A correctly dressed Carrick Bend cannot ever capsize. Its very dressing is capsizing its pattern by putting load on it, whereupon it takes its final form.
You can see how the Carrick Bend is tied simpler than most bends at my webpage: http://web.comhem.se/~u77479609/Carrick%20Bend.html

This is what it looks like when finished, the desired dressing, from which it cannot capsize:
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:27:12 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2010, 02:54:25 AM »
/.../ the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing /.../
Sorry to see that you have misunderstood that great knot so badly. Forgive me for going OT with this one...

Thank you for the info.  I will test the Carrick Bend (again) and will do my best to make the Carrick stack up to other bends I prefer.  We'll see.

Just curious, did you make that webpage before studying the Zeppelin Bend?  You ignored the Zeppelin Bend but compared the Sheet Bend to the Carrick.  All due respect, but I'll have to say the Zeppelin Bend is the King of Bends.  I have tested the Zeppelin Bend in all kinds of cord, from thick rope to 10-lb test monofilament fishing line.  I have decided that I will use the Zeppelin Bend to join fishing line, instead of the traditional fishing knots available...no kidding.  The Zeppelin Bend just works.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 04:37:18 AM by knot4u »

jsc

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2010, 03:07:53 AM »
Hello, Inkanyezi. That's what I thought, regarding the loaded form of the Carrick's Bend. Your "standing part method" of tying it is awesome, and something I haven't seen anywhere else, did you come up with it?

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2010, 08:46:06 AM »
No to the question about the Zeppelin, which I did know beforehand. However, I found it too difficult to do with stiff fingers or gloves in darkness, without the aid of vision. Any important knot used in sailing must be easily tied unaided by vision and when fingers are a bit stiff from cold or with gloves on. The Zeppelin can be tied with closed eyes, and with gloves as well, although it's slower and more difficult, It also needs a bit more dressing than the Carrick Bend. Darkness and stiff fingers makes it really awkward, compared to the "standing part" method of tying the Carrick Bend.

Yes, I came up with the method of tying it myself, with the deliberate intention to find a way of tying that could be done with thumb gloves in complete darkness. The sheet bends can be tied under the same conditions, but the Carrick Bend is swifter and more secure, as well as in my opinion the only one that can also be easily untied with mittens on.

With a soaked knot frozen, the Carrick Bend still can be untied without too much hassle.

So in essence, there are a couple of desirable features added; mainly being able to tie the knot without aid of vision and with numb fingers or gloves on, as well as ease of untying under similar conditions. I regard the knot amply secure in most kinds of cordage, particularly the types of cordage common on board.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 10:36:20 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

Transminator

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 144
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2010, 05:00:04 PM »
Hello Inkanyezi

I have to say I rather like your method of tying the carrick bend.
I always found it a bit awkward to tie (even though I use it regularly as the start of the knife lanyard knot e.g.) as a regular bend.

This places it right up there to accompany the zeppelin and the butterfly on my list of best bends.

Thanks

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2010, 08:16:35 PM »
I spent some time tying the Carrick Bend using the method provided in the website above.  I won't be putting this bend above the Zeppelin, the Butterfly or the Double Sheet Bend.  The Carrick Bend remains, for me, harder to tie than the other bends I mentioned.  If I can become proficient with the Carrick Bend, then perhaps I'll put it above the Double Sheet Bend.  Anyway, when I do need a bend, it's highly unlikely that one of my top 3 won't suffice.  Also, my top 3 bends have never jammed on me, and they hold secure.  Meanwhile, I cannot personally vouch for the performance of the Carrick Bend.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:42:02 PM by knot4u »

jsc

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2010, 09:38:52 PM »
Has David Delaney's alternative Alpine Butterly Bend Loop been discussed here? http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html

I can't find any reference to it through the forum search. I thought it was an interesting variant on the "normal" way to tie the butterfly as an end loop. In the normally formed end loop, the loop ends up being formed just as in the Alpine Butterfly Loop in the bight, only near one end. The pull from the standing part comes at right angles to the loop, which is formed out of what would be the two short ends in the bend. In the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop, the loop is tied with the bend in the same orientation as in the Zeppelin Loop, with the standing part ending up as what would be one of the standing parts of the Alpine Butterfly Bend and the loop being formed out of what would be the other standing part of the bend plus one of the short ends. If it's given that the bend is what makes the loop strong, I think this is a preferable end loop from the butterfly.

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1874
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2010, 10:29:33 PM »
Has David Delaney's alternative Alpine Butterly Bend Loop been discussed here? http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html

I can't find any reference to it through the forum search.

See this:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1878.msg12717#msg12717

The Butterfly Loop does not lend itself very well to use as an end loop. 
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2010, 08:20:57 AM »
The Butterfly Loop does not lend itself very well to use as an end loop. 
Nor does the Zeppelin loop, or indeed any other loop based on two interlocked overhand knots!

I would agree, on similar grounds. Interlocked overhand knots always have to be undone in a more complicated way than those that don't have any overhand. However, for security, these knots could be commendable if they weren't so easily mistied or difficult to memorize.

/.../   Do you want an end of the line loop ? Tie one of the many secure forms of the bowline family of loops. Bowlines are the best loops there exist, no reason to go any further.

Bowlines sometimes are regarded as not sufficiently secure. That is why the Janus Bowline was invented.

We have once before been over a loop based on the Carrick Bend, the Wave Loop, which is easily tied with a method that resembles the bowline. It is more easily tied than many within the Bowline family, as the way of tying imprints its form in the movements; its choreography makes it as easy to tie as a bowline, but it is not only more secure, but also more easily untied.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=434.msg3568#msg3568


The method is also another fairly simple way of tying the Carrick Bend.

And no, I did not include it in my ten most useful knots, although it is a very secure and easily tied knot. Picking ten, when you know a hundred or so, is not such an easy task. For most purposes the Bowline indeed is sufficiently secure. Those other loops that are more secure are demanded mainly by mountaneers and the like; people who want more security and still want to easily undo the knot. I would prefer the Wave Loop, just because it does not include overhand knots, and is therefore not only more easily tied, but also more easily undone even though it is amply secure.

And that is why I would not consider the Zeppelin among my preferred knots, even though I have known it for a very long time. The bends and loops I use kan be tied blindly, while I find it difficult to tie a Zeppelin without looking, whether as a bend or a loop.

The Carrick family of interlocked backhand knots have a great advantage over most knots relying on interlocked overhands (the exception is the butterfly on a bight); there is only one tuck. Two interlocking overhands need two tucks. That is the reason why I would rather choose the Wave Loop than the Janus Bowline.  Also "following some part" implies reeving, and a decision must be made which part to follow and you need to see it. Knots that could be tied based on their choreography and do not need to rely on vision are easier to tie correctly in a consistent way, and that's why I prefer the Bowline, as well as Carrick and Sheet bends.

I never said that the Zeppelin would jam, I said it is not as easily untied as a Carrick Bend. The reason is that it has two tucks, while the Carrick has only one.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 05:25:11 PM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1874
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2010, 04:20:41 PM »
The Butterfly Loop does not lend itself very well to use as an end loop.  
Nor does the Zeppelin loop, or indeed any other loop based on two interlocked overhand knots! (I am chanting here... :)) The use of an overhand knot right after the standing end, which has to be untied after the rest of the loop
   Do you want an end of the line loop ? Tie one of the many secure forms of the bowline family of loops. Bowlines are the best loops there exist, no reason to go any further.
The Zeppelin Loop has a few memorable methods of tying.  One of them is very similar to the way the corresponding bend is tied.  The Butterfly Loop does not have such a memorable method for tying around or through an object before closing.  The Zeppelin Loop is also more secure and more jam resistant.

Secondly, the Zeppelin Loop only requires three un-tucks to fully untie, while the simple yet not very secure Bowline requires two un-tucks.  Seems a worthwhile trade off to me (at least in some applications).  The Zeppelin Loop structure and its variants are more secure than the Bowline structure and its variants.

After your "Knots are Impractial" (paraphrasing) thread, where you admitted that you don't really use knots, I'm surprised that you keep posting in the Practical Knots forum.

If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".