Author Topic: Top ten most useful knots.  (Read 109665 times)

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2008, 05:12:47 PM »
Ummm, even away from climbing/rigging/rescue apps and knot 'play'; a Constrictor or that bag knot variation is'are a favorite for me for mending and hose clamping, as wella s termintations.  A lot of times going to bag knot or Groundline, especially for a slipped forms for holding temporarys well.

Knotty Girl

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2008, 06:02:15 PM »
I thought I'd weigh in from a Scout's perspective. I think your list of knots should be determined by your audience. In this particular case, you're teaching knots to Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts so your list should include knots used for camping, hikng and other outdoor activities as well as emergency and rescue knots, climbing knots and some fishing knots. You may not be able to keep it 10. You also need to take into consideration what knots these Scouts are going to be "tested" on to achieve their various ranks and you need to teach them those knots regardless of your personal opinion of a particular knot.

Next week, my Webelos will begin working on their own knot boards. We'll review the square, fisherman's, overhand, bowline, half hitch, and sheet bend knots that they should have learned as Bears and Wolves. We'll add to this the clove hitch and taut-line hitch. That's 8 knots. All of these knots will be required when they cross over into Boy Scouts and are earning their Tenderfoot and First Class ranks.

I think you've got a pretty good list already, but I appreciate the fact that you want to fine tune it and stream line it. Just be careful what you cut.

Knotty Girl
Cadette Girl Scout Leader Troop 41934
Webelos Cub Scout Den Leader Den 5

DerekSmith

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2008, 06:37:16 PM »
Perhaps this is an indicator as to why we tend not to find the Constrictor in the wild, we just don't teach it to our kids.

Two grades and no sign of the Constrictor, yet it is the knot I probably use more than any other (I also start with a Constrictor, poke the end through and dress with a pull to make the Myrtle loop, then tie out the end with a strangle).

I wonder how often we would see it in the wild if it managed to get on the list of 'knots to be learnt'

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2008, 11:10:50 PM »
I thought I'd weigh in from a Scout's perspective. I think your list of knots should be determined by your audience.

And I wonder if the girls would take (more readily than boys) to tying decorative knots
(not excluding the practical, but in addition to ...)!?

Quote
... some fishing knots. You may not be able to keep it 10.
"10" is an unfortunate number, based on its "roundness".  And what can be learned should
easily grow from some core, where the additional knots are seen as variations.
As for "fishing" knots, I don't really see any in your list; the basic one might be the
Angler's/Perfection Loop, fairly easily tied in monofilament line.  I recommend that
your "Overhand"--which I presume to be the stopper knot--be incorporated (or at
least shown how to be so) in the Clove & taut-line (well, Rolling:  tied to object) hitches
as a way to prevent the locking HHitch from loosening (ditto for use w/2HHitches).
If the Clove is show qua binder, it's a simple step to bring in part of the "Square"
tying to yield the Constrictor.

Quote
You also need to take into consideration what knots these Scouts are going to be "tested" on

Oh, indeed the IGKT should:  but with an eye to advising about the merit of that tested-on set,
not merely accepting it.  Now, for some years (or some decade plus ago), the Surrey Six was a set
put forward and taught in just this spirit.

Thanks,
--dl*
====

roo

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2008, 12:59:02 AM »
the Surrey Six was a set
put forward and taught in just this spirit.


Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2008, 08:06:44 AM »
Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.
Google answers that ("yes"), nominally--then it's up to interpreting "hitch".  (They show a round turn
in the Fig.8 eye around an object.)  It could work qua ring hitch and as a minimal version of
the Timber hitch, and in a noose (in a few orientations, one shown by CLDay).)  Interesting that the
single & not double sheet bend is presented, given the motivation for this set (slippery cordage).

(Sorry to see that their site suggests that one has "over 3800 [knots] to choose from", alas.)

 :)

DerekSmith

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2008, 07:43:23 PM »

Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.

Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.

Derek

roo

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2008, 08:02:45 PM »

Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.

Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.

Derek

Ok, I'll bow to absurdity.  I think I'll put a round turn in all my loop knots just for fun and so I can call them hitches. (j/k)  Well, except I still would avoid the figure 8.  Too jammy.

I'm glad the IGKT website has chosen not to endorse or list the Surrey 6.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 08:07:13 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2008, 04:01:11 AM »
Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.
Derek
Ok, I'll bow to absurdity.
I think I'll put a round turn in all my loop knots just for fun and so I can call them hitches. (j/k)

I think this discussion is starting to drift!
There are some uses of a "hitch"--a tying notion--in which the structure is so named
because it is a tying TO something (in contrast to making an eye that awaits employment).
Thus, in the case of some eyeknots, such "hitching" entails a "re-threaded" vs. "in the bight"
tying, by which it's distinguished.
And, for some obviously OTHEReason (or bereft of reason!), the angler's "Spider Hitch"
is named a hitch--I don't know why.
But it's this notion, I think, and not the turns present in the eye, for which "hitch"
is used.  (You could raise the question to Howard Denyer.)

As for Derek's assertion, I'm wondering:  could you be meaning the Tensionless
Hitch (which in fact I recently photographed a matching pair of, at a climbing site
--it's a structure I think is silly in most uses!)?

 :)

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2008, 06:18:16 PM »
IMLHO the Tensionless Hitch is a model of superior strategy by professing not to let the Bitter End really deform the Standing.  Then the only deformity is by the size of the mount, and how frictions go.  Because the change in elastic stretch (and therefore diameter) etc. besides the most noted change from inline/unleveraged deformity by itself or mount while loaded \resisting such deformities) is another of suddenly impacting (thanx drLehman i believe) change as Standing goes to hitchings,  it isn't perfect, only better.  But also a good target imagery of the holy grail of limiting impacting changes to fully loaded (and inline) Standing (Tension) Part for maximum strength.   i've seen/used a Tensionless Hitch  2 ways, A) where the Bitter End is anchored to the Standing, and B) where the Bitter end is then anchored to something else/ not to the Standing (Tension) Part.  Of course B) doesn't bend/deform the Standing at all, no impacts or low(nor spin on that 1 dimension).  This is where 'strength' is more dependent on host/mount size/ bending of Standing (deformity by Bitters is limited/Zer0), but then still would suffer from weaknesses per the other type of 'upsetting the flow' changes(and their suddenness)  as stated earlier.  Best is no change, force flowing in 1 dimension, as this changes to 2 dimensions etc. we have leverage(but then must recognize changes in 3 dimensions (not just inline pull altered by single, simple bend).

But, in using strategy A) i think in terms of impacting (which could lead to a more deformed Standing (Tension) Part than Cow, Clove Running Bowline etc.)  or slick (surface) host/mount could give different results than a rough spar, by bending Standing more than other situations.  i think the idea is to get such a reduction of force in line as it trails to Bitters, that the Bitter End doesn't bend / deform the Standing (Tension) Part; so i like to think in terms of a Round Turn crossing itself under the main tension of the Standing, then another Turn or more, then attach to Standing by Bowline or 'krab'(carabiner) for more modular setup/ breakdown, quick release.  But, all these strategies can turn against ye, if the direction of the loading changes, and the line is set hard, so now eye  can bend Standing more (if pull direction is away from the Standing).  so, now the tables are turned; for the same non-slip for less tension in Bitter End that seems superior, can now (direction dependent) against us, as that means less self adjustmeant to lower loading (Nature would otherwise seek out).  Strategy B) does allow this self adjustmeant. 

As to the 10 most wanted, perhaps that is audience dependent (as a number), perhaps the youngest would have a target of 4 or 6 in scouts.  Even later, could keep it low yet high, by learning Clove or almost Clove, at the point of a Crossed Turn + Turn) to make Constrictor, Bag Knot (if the Bitter tail finishes as a linear Round Turn, rather than Turn, could we call it a Double Bagger?), Groundline for 4 knots known(but really 1 base + 4 different 'endings' with Bitter End). But, then the wealth of background and knots to know for the scout leader hustling to L-earn these things, would be more to fill in blanks and adjust to specific uses etc., able to field questions etc.   i think ye'ol Guilde should have a setup, tiered recommendations of such things perhaps extending to fishing specialties etc.(then ask that audience and grow, expand), and take their place as the authority of these things(on internet and elsewhere), to these youngest (deepest planted seeds of future) for own good as well as fighting these things from becoming extinct.  Those that wandered in here with this question should have come to the right place, and have it waiting for them, if not at least the immediate place/places to go.  They should not have to chase it down as we've had to; where else is an informed person going to look first?  Who has a better chance of having that whole audience, doing the most good etc.?  Perhaps in time evolve to recomended scenarios (camping etc.) to teach in fun setting and applications of actual use, downloadable pdf, whatever.

"Bag Knot" Animation
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 01:16:26 AM by TheTreeSpyder »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2008, 05:38:49 AM »
IMLHO the Tensionless Hitch is a model of superior strategy by professing not to let the Bitter End really deform the Standing.

Mariners roll in their watery graves with each Spydery use of "bitters":  for the origin of that isn't about
an ultimate end, but about a rough third of rope at the bitts, vs. at the opposite end, or the rope spanning
the distance between  ::)

What irks me re the oft'-seen use of the Tensionless H. in making top-rope rockclimbing anchors
is that it begs the question "What will you do for an encore?!"--i.e,. super strong HERE (not the
bitter end, but around a tree, the *barker* one  :D ), but what about at the climber's end eye?
AND it's more of a PITAss to set up, tediously wrapping rope around & around (3 arounds should
suffice, points out OnRope1's MythBuster).  AND-#2 it is harder on the tree, bringing in full force
on one side, with ample material stretch to see the rope move under load against the bark
(although the many wraps might l00k like padding).
Whereas the simple solution comes by just passing a bight of rope (simpler if one has a LONG
rope and fetching the end would be a bother) around the tree and tying off with a bowline and
appropriate securing of that.
Usually these soooo-strong anchor makers complement their silliness by insisting on LOCKING
'biners in the eyes of the Fig.8 eyeknots to clip to the Ten.H.'s SPart--preventing clever squirrels
and other miscreants from opening a regular 'biner, no doubt!!

 :-\

DerekSmith

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2008, 01:07:49 PM »
'Mariners rolling in their watery graves' - they should be pleased that their idiotic terminology did not die out with them and is still finding some semblance of use long beyond its context of creation.

As for the squirrel proof locked bina.  Have you ever been climbing?

Many times I have been on a pitch that was within my physical ability and skill level, yet something in my subconscious insisted that I could not climb it.  Then is when the trust in ones second, the tree anchor belay and the squirrel proof bina come into play and deal an equally illogical counter argument to the subconscious.  Then, with adrenalin rushing, you execute the climb faultlessly and clock up another memorable achievement.

Long live the squirrel proof locked bina, illogical I know, but Priceless.

Derek

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2008, 01:57:44 PM »
Locked krabs are real important when a person might be 'rolling around' at different angles etc.; especially with  line running through krab(that could even spin a lock, thus other lock strategies).  And we all ways must think in terms of a fall incident too, where such jostling and even pressures on gate/keeper (by stick, belt, gut etc.) could open the krab.  Even if line doesn't come out, the open gate will weaken the structure.  this could be especially important during impacts on line and/or when loading is away from solid back 'spine' of krab properly, but more towards (or even across axis of) gate.  Thereby the warnings about using a cinching tight noose/shrinking type eye to krab connection; as opposed to a fixed eye (like bowline) that could then leverage krab with open gate...  Bowline to Krab Warning.  We must maintain this fail-safe frame of mind, bordering out injuries and fatalities from most forces, weakness and human failing; striking the system at once...

i think some of this (Tensionless etc.) is about making each module/machine piece as worthy as possible, as a mantra, pushing the art form like that etc.  Especially, when life is on the line.  so even though, there'd be a sense to making all positions in the chain as strong as the other (because chain is only as strong as weakest point), why purposefully make a specific point weaker than ya have to?  Especially, when other parts of the line might be bent/bent here and there  for whatever amount of time, but the anchoring deformations will be at that same point all the time/ it is guaranteed point of constant loading if any loading (whether climber is at top or bottom of line).

But, once again, i think the greatest gift of Tensionless, is in modeling other rigs/knots after it's principals!  And, thus another point for full familiarity with Tensionless(by using it)!

Perhaps i've taken sum liscence with the nomenclature, but i mean the Bitter End or termination of force(s), the nip trapped/lock parts, and kinda abbreviated ya know like Bowl, RT etc. to fit; and let these things (of knots) be carried on/ not die and even be explored more(as real aim).

What purposes should these holy 10 cover?

Fixed Eye, shrinking eye /noose, power (truckers), mending/binding/anchoring closure, fishing, friction hitch, midline eye, stopper, bending lines together, quick release, throwing knot, water/beer for flat line (or tubing?), dbl. slipped square for shoes?, rescue seat?

Does the Adjsutable Hitch (that i've worked in flat/webbing quite well) fit for all the things acclaimed as perhaps all-around champ (if'n ya had to pick 1)?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 03:38:55 PM by TheTreeSpyder »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2008, 07:26:40 PM »
Locked krabs are real important when a person might be ...
... charged with boosting the economy.  Beyond that, as I indicated, they are a complementarily
ridiculous part of a too-clever-by-half anchor system for TR--period.  (Consider against all that
spew for a biner the very name here:  "tensionLESS"--why, no knot at all should be necessary
(the no-knot can withstand less tension beautifully).  (And your earlier post argued why the
unconstrained TH was better on change of direction.)

 ;D

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2008, 08:24:38 PM »
All i can tell ya is that hanging 80' off hard ground and looking down to see an open krab is a scary feeling...  And overkill is for underkill!

(k)Now in all unfairness, an anchor position like this would be less subject to all those forces; but at same time, less inspectable.  So if ya got'em, use'em or double up etc.  What does it take fer that peace of mind?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 08:27:58 PM by TheTreeSpyder »