Author Topic: Top ten most useful knots.  (Read 109924 times)

knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #120 on: November 04, 2010, 08:41:48 PM »
And Knot4U continues to fish with a Zeppelin and eschew his somehow
jammed #1452 ... .  Well, good luck with that.

???

You made up something and are arguing with yourself like a crazy man.  You do this so often that it's hard to know what's credible.  It's a shame because I think there may be some useful knowledge mixed with all the superfluous comments.

First, I tested the Zeppelin on fishing line AWHILE AGO.  It jams rock hard in fishing line.  You would know this if you tested the Zeppelin Bend in monofilament like I have.  There is a long thread discussing my findings.  I have used the Zeppelin Bend and Double ZB successfully in monofilament fishing to fish and it worked flawlessly.  I know you would like for it not to work, but what can I say? It does.  Second (later in time), I just recently remembered that the Ashley Bend jams.  Third (later in time), I will be testing the Ashley Bend in fishing line.  Do you see how that works?  One thing comes after the other.

It is at times amusing, but with repetition here, distressing to the point
of being hard to read, some arm-chair opinions on esp. the most userful
knots.

I have yet to hear of any actual rope-using application that would
employ many of the sets of knots put forth here.  I can assure you
that the seemingly vogue Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend is extraordinarily
rare bird in the wild (though I would see it happy with Alaskan crabbers,
who employ the Carrick bend); there is some rumor of favor among the
arborists with some posts.

Ashley didn't have the Zeppelin Bend in his book.  "Hey, the Zeppelin Bend is so worthless that's it not even in the Ashley Book of Knots."  Do you also subscribe to that erroneous logic?

I hate to be the one to break the news to you:  The Zeppelin Bend is not vogue.  It may be vogue in this tiny little world of knot nerds, but it still remains largely unknown to people who are adept at tying knots.  I use what's tied out in the wild as a rough guide AT BEST.  Most of those folks don't study knots.  They tie what they've been told to tie.  Like other successful free thinkers, I prefer to figure out what works best FOR ME through a combination of reading and experimenting.

I'm thinking of the daily duties where something "most useful" should
be expected to be found.  Hmmm, tying up plastic bags (of produce,
of trash) will see Overhand knots and SquaREefs (but I'd luv to see
you "Zeppelin/Butterly" zealots go at it with those knots!).  Shoes
are done with the slipped SquaREef (but there are some nifty securings
to that), or Granny (ditto).  A commercial fisherman's work uses what
could be seen as much half-hitching, with Overhands, Sheet bends,
and the Fisherman's knot --which he won't replace w/Rosendahl's
even (or esp.!) if you put it into some regulation.

Cavers, rockclimbers, arborists, construction workers, ... :  I don't
see them adopting these armchair "most useful" knots, for the
most part (of course, some they do use).

Here's a photo of one lobster boats floats tied to the rail.
Do you think they'd ever use a Sailor's hitch or Anchor bend
vice the clove?  --perhaps the latter, tied to the float, but not
to the rail: that wants a quickly tied, simple knot.  And the 2nd is
a conch-pot bridle --Overhands in three places (eye & two stoppers).

--dl*
====

Again, I use what's being done in the wild as a rough guide AT BEST.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 11:03:45 PM by knot4u »

SAI Peregrinus

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2010, 07:22:10 AM »
Not including the very basic knots (reef knot, overhand knot, etc that nearly everyone knows. Otherwise overhand knot, reef knot, and half-hitching would dominate every list based on real world use.)

1: Alpine Butterfly. It's a loop. It can be easily made into a bend. It's strong. It's easy to tie. It can be tied in the bight if needed. It can be tied around an object for use as a hitch. Double and triple loop variants are easy too.
2: Double Dragon. Same reasons as the Alpine Butterfly really.
3: Adjustable grip hitch. Neither the Double Dragon nor the Alpine Butterfly provides a good slide-and-grip knot. This does, and is strong and easy to tie.
4: Constrictor knot. Easy to tie. Makes a good hitch, a good binding, can be used as a whipping.
5: Figure-8 knot. Bring the end back around and follow itself for a good loop. Join 2 for a bend. Use it as a stopper. VERY easy.
6: Highwayman's hitch. Simple quick release. Easy to remember, if not terribly reliable. None of the above are quite as good for quick release, even when tied with draw loops.
7: Icicle hitch. Grips nearly anything. It can also be used as a prusik knot.
8: Splicing. Basic splicing is quite useful, and very strong.
9: Plaiting. Twisting cord into rope is quite difficult with more than two strands. If you need a thicker rope a good braid can supply one.
10: Turk's Head knot. With knowledge of expansions and interweaves you can create most of the decorative knots you'll ever need.

Really, one could get away with the Butterfly family, icicle hitch, splicing, and plaiting. All of the above are strong (well, except the higwayman's hitch). All are easy to tie. All are part of a larger series of knots, and can be used for multiple purposes.

roo

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2010, 04:47:44 PM »
6: Highwayman's hitch. Simple quick release. Easy to remember, if not terribly reliable. None of the above are quite as good for quick release, even when tied with draw loops.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on your other choices, but if you already see the deficiency of the Highwayman's Hitch, there are some alternatives.  The Tumble Hitch is one example:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

You can also check out the related pages listed at the bottom of the Tumble Hitch page to further explore the topic.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


SAI Peregrinus

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #123 on: November 12, 2010, 08:51:50 AM »
6: Highwayman's hitch. Simple quick release. Easy to remember, if not terribly reliable. None of the above are quite as good for quick release, even when tied with draw loops.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on your other choices, but if you already see the deficiency of the Highwayman's Hitch, there are some alternatives.  The Tumble Hitch is one example:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

You can also check out the related pages listed at the bottom of the Tumble Hitch page to further explore the topic.

That does look better, thanks. I'd used the "clove hitch biting a bight" from Peter Suber's "exploding knots" but that could be easier.

knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2010, 07:42:27 PM »
That does look better, thanks. I'd used the "clove hitch biting a bight" from Peter Suber's "exploding knots" but that could be easier.

That may be an "exploding hitch", but it doesn't serve the same purpose as the Highwayman's Hitch or the Tumble Hitch, which will release the rope completely off the object by pulling the working end.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 10:17:11 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #125 on: November 26, 2010, 02:27:48 PM »
Below are the knots & rope skills I find either the most useful or basic. The top 13 are fairly easily learned by moderately motivated eleven+ year olds. Important for the instructor to understand and teach the uses and limitations of the various knots, bends, hitches, lashings, and skills. Emphasize safety.

Knotter's Dozen (think baker's dozen, i.e. 13 donuts)
1.   Bowline
2.   Buntline Hitch (with the option a locking half hitch, like used for a butcher's knot) w/Packer's Corning Knot/Hitch variant (Danger of the buntline's characteristic of "one-way" tightening but not loosening should be emphasized. If you've not already discovered this characteristic, experiment with this knot a bit. See Ashley's section on packer's knots.)
3.   Clove Hitch
4.   Constrictor Knot w/Transom (Ashley) variant (Transom useful as a temporary square/diagonal lashing when limited material available.)
5.   Figure Eight Knot & Bend (Flemish Bend)
6.   Halter Hitch
7.   Overhand Knot & Bend
8.   Rolling Hitch
9.   Sheet Bend
10.   Square/Reef + slipped & bow
11.   Tauntline Hitch
12.   Trucker's/Wagoneer's Hitch
13.   Two Half Hitches (w/Round Turn)

Plus
14.   Coiling & Storing
15.   Fusing
16.   Throwing
17.   Whipping

Lashings
18.   Diagonal Lashing
19.   Floor Lashing
20.   Shear Lashing
21.   Square Lashing
22.   Tripod Lashing

Fishing & Boating
23.   Cleat Hitch
24.   Double Fisherman's/Scaffold Knot (Grapevine Knot, & similar Uni-Knot; Double/multi-Fisherman?s Loop)
25.   Figure Eight Hitch (for braided wire leader)
26.   Highwayman's Hitch
27.   Improved Clinch Knot
28.   Mooring Hitch
29.   Perfection/Angler's Loop

Others
30.   Adjustable Bend
31.   Adjustable Loop
32.   Carrick Bend (& show how to turn into a Turks Head (e.g. Scouter's Woodbadge Woggle) or coaster. There are eight or so different knots for which .   the carrick bend is the foundation.)
33.   Cow Hitch/Lark's Head/Strop Bend
34.   Crossing Knot (and how to tie by passing a coil of line through it's loop)
35.   Decorative Loop & Bend (Ashley shows this as a loop but easily adapted as a bend... good in bungie cord & polypro. Very under appreciated knot. Can .   be tied in the end or bight. Low profile & secure. It's one of Ashley's numbered knots... I'll look up the numbers & post.)
36.   Honda
37.   Icicle Hitch (or Camel Hitch (Ashley))
38.   Alpine Butterfly Loop & Bend (Ashley refers to it as the Lineman's Loop.)
39.   Simple Simon Over (Good in bungie & polypro... i.e. slippery cordage)
40.   Any of the inter-locking overhand knots, e.g. Zepplin bend, Hunter's bend, Ashley shows one, etc.)

Respectfully Submitted,
A Scouter & Sailing Instructor
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:35:15 AM by SaltyCracker »

SaltyCracker

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #126 on: November 27, 2010, 12:58:12 PM »
As a Sr. Member, xarax must be the guy on this forum whose job it is to put new posters in their place by finding fault...

The original post called for an inexact "say 10 or 12"... Putting in the "baker's dozen" list at the top met the spirit of the original request, even though going one knot beyond 12. The rest were to show respect for some other knots and aspects of ropework.

That said, I stand repremanded.

knot4u

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #127 on: November 27, 2010, 05:34:59 PM »
Welcome to the forum KnotInGuild.  That's a thoughtful list that covers a broad range of practical application.  I appreciate the extra knots you added, particularly your 14 through 22.  I need to become more knowledgeable with lashings, whippings, etc.  If you're doing those things with rope on a regular basis, then you're not a novice that's for sure.

I personally found it difficult to narrow my list down to 10 knots.  Looking back, my Top 10 is not always my top ten, depending on what problem I just solved with a knot.  By the way, I have found that the arguments around here are plentiful.  However, I think the arguments are a good thing because within the clash of strong opinions is information that's quite useful.  Overall, I think most people are sincerely trying to improve their knowledge of knots.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 05:39:28 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2010, 11:06:15 PM »
Thanks xarax & knot4u...

The "Baker's Dozen" (13 knots at the top of my original post) were the one's that I find: 1) Are basic or fill some purpose that, without them on the list, would not be met; 2) Are fairly easy to teach and remember. Since I'm a Scouter, some of the included knots are basic to Cub & Boy Scouts. The rest of the knots are not in any order. #40 could have been #14 if the list had been pushed one more.

If I had to drop one of the original 13 to get the list down into the "say 10 or 12" of StandingBear's original request, it would probably be the venerable sheet bend. Not because it isn't a basic knot worth knowing and one I use frequently but 1) Because it is basically the same form as the bowling; 2) The Flemish bend is a much more secure (safer) way to join two ropes; 3) the Flemish Bend gets the nod over some of the other "joining" knots because it is easier to learn, remember, and check.

I still need to look up the "Decorative Loop" reference number from Ashley's. It's become one of my favorites since it is very secure, holds reasonably well in shock cord & polypro, can be tied in the bight (but not nearly as good of an "in the bight" knot as the Butterfly loop), has a low diamiter, can be modified to join to ropes or cords, and it's ends come out parallel to the working/standing leads... but I wouldn't call it easy to learn or remember. I looks a bit like a vis-a-versa.

SaltyCracker

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #129 on: November 30, 2010, 06:14:27 PM »
Decorative Knot reference in ABoK #1031 & #1048

From previous post... "I still need to look up the "Decorative Loop" reference number from Ashley's. It's become one of my favorites since it is very secure, holds reasonably well in shock cord & polypro, can be tied in the bight (but not nearly as good of an "in the bight" knot as the Butterfly loop), has a low diamiter, can be modified to join to ropes or cords, and it's ends come out parallel to the working/standing leads... but I wouldn't call it easy to learn or remember. I looks a bit like a vis-a-versa."

SaltyCracker

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Lashings reference... Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #130 on: November 30, 2010, 06:43:54 PM »
knot4u
You wrote: "I appreciate the extra knots you added, particularly your 14 through 22.  I need to become more knowledgeable with lashings, whippings, etc.  If you're doing those things with rope on a regular basis, then you're not a novice that's for sure."

Good reference for lashings is Rope Works by Gerald L Findley. The basic version is only 10.99 US and he has a Plus version that came out since I purchased my copy. It sells for a little more.  It has quite a few other knots & rope work techniques as well. Small & compact, it's the book I carry in the knot bag I use to teach from. http://www.ropeworks.biz/text08/book.html

The new knot I learned from the book was the Monkey's Paw, not Fist, Paw. Think it's the same as the Chinese Button Knot but until I saw it in this book didn't relate it to the Carrick Bend. The Carrick Bend is the basis for several other knots such as knife lanyard knot, 3 lead by 4 bight turks head, a round mat (drink coaster) based on the turks head form, and the long mat, as well as the bends and loops that can be formed with the basic Carrick Bend itself.


SaltyCracker

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Update to Nov 26 post... Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #131 on: January 03, 2011, 01:34:40 AM »
Based upon the exchange in the "Subtle Buntline" thread, my post of November 26 was updated. The following is the key (substantive) change. Other punctuation and minor clarification changes were also made in that post.

2.   Buntline Hitch (with the option a locking half hitch, like used for a butcher's knot) w/Packer's Corning Knot/Hitch variant (Danger of the buntline's characteristic of "one-way" tightening but not loosening should be emphasized. If you've not already discovered this characteristic, experiment with this knot a bit. See Ashley's section on packer's knots.)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 02:46:30 PM by SaltyCracker »

xarax

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Re: Top ten most useful knots.
« Reply #132 on: November 26, 2014, 12:33:22 PM »
   In accordance to the post with the "new" knots (1), here is a collection of a baker s dozen of already known, useful and neat knots, IMHO.

   Alpine Butterfly loop
   Blackwall hitch ( within a bight )
   Bowline
   Double Harness bend ( ABoK#1420 )
   Fig.8, bend and loop
   Fisherman s knot ( single and double )
   Gleipnir
   Rat tail stopper
   Round turn and two half hitches
   Transom / Constrictor / Strangle
   Tumbling Thief knot
   Zeppelin bend

   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5084.0

   Edit ( 2015-4-10)
   Since the Constrictor, the Strangle - and the Transom as well ( ABoK#385/1182/1255/3372 ) are, in a sense, the "same" knot ( they "work" the same way : a twisted around each other pair of Standing/Tail Ends, squeezed in between a riding turn and the surface of the pole/spar, so the friction forces inside them are enhanced ), I place them at the same slot, as I do for the retraced fig.8 bend and loop. So, my pantheon has now one vacant seat, and I have to decide which knot should occupy it !  :) )
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 03:25:12 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.