Author Topic: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop  (Read 61996 times)

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2005, 04:39:32 PM »
Quote
Now, starting with Dave's third Tugboat B picture, move the working end to be parallel to and beside the standing part. Then, flip "Bight 2" to lie over the parallel working and standing parts. Holding the working and standing parts together, tighten the knot with the free hand. What do we have? We have "H&G's Tugboat Bwl"!


Interesting, good catch!

Quote
Glen Dickey references the "Tugboat Bowline" to Graumont and Hensel's "Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Rope Work", p. 588, Plate 314, Fig. 2.

As Dan pointed out, your Tugboat B is shown in EKFR, p.491, fig. 303 and G&H call it "Single Bowline on the Bight".


If I'm understanding correctly, G&H's "Single Bowline on the Bight" is identical to my Tugboat B, and G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is my Tugboat B but with "bight 2" (as Brian called it) flipped over.

In looking back over this thread, the only vote (so to speak) for my Tugboat A being the Tugboat Bowline was a comment by roo, equating the "single Dragon" with the Tugboat Bwl.  Perhaps this was a case of mistaken identity?  Roy mentioned that the Tugboat Bwl is the same as the Perfection Loop, but after going back to Brion's book he changed his mind.  G&H described my Tugboat B as the "Single Bowline on the Bight," but it seems that people aren't very impressed with that designation (judging by the comments in this thread)!  In addition, G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is a variation of my Tugboat B.  Taking all of this into account, and including other comments in this thread, it seems that my Tugboat B is emerging as the best candidate for the Tugboat Bwl.  If that's correct, then my Tugboat A would simply be the single form of the Double Dragon, and a variation of the Artillery Loop.

Sound reasonable?

Dave

KnotNow!

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 368
  • IGKT-PAB PAST PRESIDENT
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2005, 08:26:41 PM »
Hi Dave, Seems as if you have sorted it out far better than I ever could.  After all your research do you think the Tug Boat Bowline, as you now have identified it, is intended to be tied by a "speed" flip of the wrist method?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

knudeNoggin

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 111
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2005, 11:54:26 PM »
Quote
G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is my Tugboat B but with "bight 2" (as Brian called it) flipped over.

Which reverses the arrangement of the crossing-knot base of this knot,
as was previously pointed out as a big, fundamental difference (to exclude the
H&G knot from real consideration as some kind of kin).  Despite this simple change,
the knots are quite different in character, in the course of the S.Part.

Quote

In looking back over this thread, the only vote (so to speak) for my Tugboat A being the Tugboat Bowline was ... . Perhaps this was a case of mistaken identity?

Is no one struck (and dismayed) by the fact that there has been no evidence
from the field, so to speak, as to the implication of the supposed moniker??!
Shouldn't the concern (& research!) be to see what use(s) the candidate knots
have received (Paul Kruse's testimony did not point to tugs, note), and--working
from the other direction (i.e., from the nominal use)--what tugboat workers actually
use (and why)?!  Think about tugs:  boats intended to pull big things (bigger boats
& barges); boats that employ large cordage (hawsers/cables).  Can you picture
such cordage being tied in a "flying" manner?  --how large of an eye can one form
by such tying, and would that suffice in the implied application?
These thoughts raise doubts, for me.

Quote
Roy mentioned that the Tugboat Bwl is the same as the Perfection Loop, but after going back to Brion's book he changed his mind.

I don't quite see PABPRES's change of mind.  Brion's book clearly shows in an IMAGE
your knot-B; but his text, as well noted above, is ambiguous at best.
(And then there should come those doubts about practicality.)

Quote
In addition, G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is a variation of my Tugboat B.

That is a debatable assertion re what should count as a variation, as I argue above.
But the simple change from one to the other lends some support to one having
been intended and somehow fudged by mishandling into the other.  And there is
yet an in-between formation, in which the non-S.Part leg of the eye straightens
out its turn around the end, such that the S.Part makes just a broad twist/curve
through the knot.  Such knots can be seen in hawsers sometimes (a bowline
capsizes into such a knot).

Quote
Taking all of this into account, and including other comments in this thread, it seems that my Tugboat B is emerging as the best candidate for the Tugboat Bwl.  If that's correct, then my Tugboat A would simply be the single form of the Double Dragon, and a variation of the Artillery Loop.
Sound reasonable?

No, it sounds like some kind of popularity contest, too divorced from reality and
practical interests.  Although I am inclined to your view, in a way; and knot-B
is a good one, though also as noted knot-A with a full wrap of end becomes quite
good and arguably best.  (Not being much practised with the "flying" tying, I can't
speculate on which version might come most readily from that--which could be a clue,
were that method seen to be reasonable, which is questioned.)

As for the relation to the (Man)harness/Artillery loop, that seems more coincidental
than meaningful; Ashley's information points to a mid-line loopknot intended
to be loaded on all parts, or on both ends alone (dropper knot) maybe.
Maybe somewhere it came to suggest this "tugboat" phenomenon; but where
is the evidence of that, if so?

*knudeNoggin*
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 11:55:23 PM by knudeNoggin »

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2005, 02:25:19 AM »
Quote
After all your research do you think the Tug Boat Bowline, as you now have identified it, is intended to be tied by a "speed" flip of the wrist method?

I don't know, I don't usually use "flip of the wrist" methods, mainly because I tend to forget how to do them after awhile! ;D


Quote
Is no one struck (and dismayed) by the fact that there has been no evidence from the field, so to speak, as to the implication of the supposed moniker??! Shouldn't the concern (& research!) be to see what use(s) the candidate knots have received (Paul Kruse's testimony did not point to tugs, note), and--working from the other direction (i.e., from the nominal use)--what tugboat workers actually use (and why)?!  Think about tugs:  boats intended to pull big things (bigger boats & barges); boats that employ large cordage (hawsers/cables).  Can you picture such cordage being tied in a "flying" manner?  --how large of an eye can one form by such tying, and would that suffice in the implied application?

It would be interesting to find out if tugboat personnel use a "Tugboat Bowline" (which might have a use for which a "flying" method is suitable) and to see how it is tied.  However, the person who coined the "Tugboat Bowline" term might have been standing on a tugboat at the time, or looking at a tugboat, or thinking of a tugboat, or perhaps the knot reminded him/her of a tugboat, or perhaps he first used the knot on the pull-string of his child's tugboat toy, etc., etc.  Case in point, the "Double Dragon" name has nothing to do with dragons, whether real or mythical.


Quote
No, it sounds like some kind of popularity contest, too divorced from reality and practical interests.

When a group of people agree to refer to a thing by a particular name, that tends to become the name of the thing.  Case in point, Paul Kruse submitted the Double Dragon on this forum to find out if it was a known knot.  It was agreed (by those who replied) that it was not known by any of them, so Paul's temporary name for the knot ("Double Dragon") became the standard name by virtue of common usage.

Similarly, unless someone is able to get an answer from a tugboat worker (if indeed this is where the name originated), or from the person who coined the term, all we really have to go on is common usage or "agreement among interested parties."  Then again, maybe the IGKT has some influence to make a definitive ruling, so to speak (as suggested at http://www.igkt.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1105530774;start=10)!    ;D

Dave

Brian Grimley

  • Guest
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2005, 05:05:25 PM »
Jimbo, Mike and Dave have shown how useful a posted picture is in "knot chat". For interested readers, the "Double Dragon Loop" mentioned in this thread is shown on Roo's site. Roo posted a picture sent to him by Paul Kruse. It is here: http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/doubledragon.html .

Brian.

knudeNoggin

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 111
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2005, 04:49:23 AM »
Quote
the "Double Dragon Loop" mentioned in this thread is shown on Roo's site ... here: www.geocities.com/roo_two/doubledragon.html .

And looking at this I can see a quick-tying method which doesn't constrain the
eye to be within the tyer's arm span (which Brion Toss's Apprentice[/u] method does):
with the left hand, seize the Z-shaped layout of rope--all three near-paralleo part,
i.e.--near the right side, leaving an ample bight for tucking the eye out;
with the right hand, hold this right-bight rightwards and then make
the flipping of the end, apprpriately; now draw the whatever-sized eye
through and finish.

As for popular names, Dave, with "Dbl.Dragon" there is no contest, and no
implication of some use; it is otherwise with "Tugboat Bwl", which implies an
application area.  And the people bandying about this name aren't primary users of the knot,
just knotheads  ::)  .
So, I prefer to hope for better backing.

*knudeNoggin*
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 04:58:18 AM by knudeNoggin »

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2005, 08:52:36 PM »
Got a bunch of email addresses for tug/towing companies throughout the U.S., and I'm sending an email to them.  Be interesting to see what turns up!

Stay tuned...

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3958
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2005, 12:51:53 AM »
Quote
Got a bunch of email addresses for tug/towing companies throughout the U.S., and I'm sending an email to them.  Be interesting to see what turns up!

Bravo, Dave!
I spent some GooglEyed time chasing after some link to Captain Stewart
of Theodore Tugboat, futiley--seems to have been mostly a ca. 2000 phenom.,
though perhaps one can yet connect.  The capt.'s bio made him sound like
a good person to ask.

Indeed, it will be interesting to learn what some sources can tell.

Cheers,
--dl*
====

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2005, 03:10:55 AM »
I sent out a couple dozen emails, and heard from someone who knew of "a master who has sailed tug boats and knows how to tie" a Tugboat Bowline.  I contacted that person and received a very helpful reply:

Quote
Dear Dave

I have seen and used the tug bowline, the main advantage is it can be tied very quickly.  It reduces the strength of the rope about 10% more than a conventional bowline, but if you need a loop in hurry can't beat it.

1/ start with the bitter end in one hand palms up , leave about 2 feet of slack hanginig use your most dexterous hand for this
2/ hold the standing part in the other hand palms up,     (now the tricky part)
3/ hold your arms away from your body and flick the bitter end around the standing parts, the bitter end should swing out in front of you then back under the standing parts and pass between your arm and your body, then back over the standing parts.
4/ you should have at this point the bitter end wrapped around the standing parts. and a loop in each hand.
5/ pass the loop where the bitter end was thru the other loop
6/ let go of the standing part loop
7/ grab the bitter end loop with your now free hand
8/ release the standing loop hand
6/ then use the bitter end hand to grab the standing part  of the line to tighten the knot.

one word of cautioin if the knot is subjected to a very heavy strain it can be a bit troublesome to untie, otherwise it is a great knot.

Regards
Phil


I asked for his permission to post his instructions here, and invited him to participate in the discussion (I sent him a link to this thread).  Here is his reply:

Quote
Hi Dave,

I do not mind at all if you post my comments and you can use my name.  I looked at the pictures of the knot on the web site, and "Tugboat A" is the knot you get when you do it as I explained. The real advantage of this knot is after you learn to tie it it can be done in about 4 to 5 seconds with a 2in Dia line, so it is a very quick loop to tie. Let me know if I can help with anyhting else.

Regards
Phil


The voice of experience!  

Dave


Brian_Grimley

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2005, 05:20:42 AM »
Dave,

Wow! Great result on your e-mails! If Phil is reading this, thank you for your help!

Following Phil's instructions, I keep ending up with the "Tugboat B".  What am I missing?

Elsewhere, one comment I read was that the "Tugboat Bowline" was only used to impress the girls on the dock.  ;D I am glad to hear from a Tugboat Master that it is also a useful and practical knot.  :)

Cheers with a smile - Brian.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3958
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2005, 10:00:57 AM »
Quote
Following Phil's instructions, I keep ending up with the "Tugboat B".  What am I missing?

You're assuming that Phil correctly identified the knot!
Recall that more than one incorrectly called an Overhand a Figure of Eight,
on this very forum.  Granted, Phil had the benefit of both images from which
to discriminate & choose, but I'm not convinced he chose corretly--i.p., version
A as noted is prone to capsize, but not be hard to untie.
Somehow in Phil's instructions, the SPart became plural; his method matches
that by Brion, more or less.

But doing this in 2" DIAmeter rope?!!  Anyone got some around to test this?
(Jimbo, PABPRES?)  I only have some handy 1.5", and it's a challenge with that
to sustain the end-wrap (the rope's not super supple/flexible), and the length
of end needed for the size, well ... :  go knock yourself out, literally!

Otherwise, I'm with Brian:   knot-B ("B" is for "better") is what I end up with.

Quote

Elsewhere, one comment I read was that the "Tugboat Bowline" was only used to impress the girls on the dock.  ;D I am glad to hear from a Tugboat Master that it is also a useful and practical knot.  :)

(Sounds like confused priorities.  ::)  )

--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3958
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2005, 10:41:38 PM »
I should point out that Ashley's #1034 is a kin to these "Tugboat Bwl.s", which seems
rather stable (it's oriented somewhat like Knot-A); moreover, should it be loosEnough
to capsize, it will likely hold a favorable form like the Capstan knot.  And #1054,
the Farmer's Loop, can be put into a tugboat bwl-like orientation (with the
SPart being the left end in Ashley's image, end to the right).  --small world!?

--dl*
====

Brian_Grimley

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2005, 04:24:38 PM »
Quote
Dan Lehmann wrote: And #1054, the Farmer's Loop, can be put into a tugboat bwl-like orientation (with the SPart being the left end in Ashley's image, end to the right).  


The Albert R. Mann Library, at Cornell University, has its "Core Historic Literature of Agriculture" on-line with public access: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/ .

Roehl, Louis M., Ropework, C1921, shows the "Farmer's Loop" tied with  "tugboat bwl-like orientation". He calls it the "Clevis Hitch".  It is here: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla;cc=chla;sid=7083762406c2b18fd3cc4be9aadd0c42;q1=clevis%20hitch;rgn=full%20text;idno=3107822;view=image;seq=0030 .

The "Farmer's Loop" is shown in Wert Frederick Alfred's, "A Laboratory Manual in Farm Machinery", 1917, starting here: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla;cc=chla;sid=d4cb1bcf944f930b04f72829e36758af;q1=Farmer%20s%20loop;rgn=full%20text;idno=2740843;view=image;seq=0137 .

Cheers - Brian

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2005, 09:24:33 PM »
Two weeks ago I emailed Phil about his instructions for tying the Tug Bwl.  He had said that "Tugboat A" looks like the Tug Bwl, but his instructions seem to describe "Tugboat B," so I asked him for a clarification.  I haven't heard back from him yet, and I have not received any other replies from the dozens of emails that I sent to tug companies a few weeks ago...

So where does that leave us?  Do we have enough evidence to make a reasonable determination, or is this still an "open issue"?

Dave

Brian_Grimley

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2005, 04:40:44 AM »
Dave,

I think we have enough evidence to make a reasonable determination. However, it is your site; therefore, most importantly, do you!

Thank you for starting this fun and interesting thread.

Cheers - Brian.