Author Topic: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop  (Read 58336 times)

knudeNoggin

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 111
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2005, 04:48:31 AM »
Quote

So where does that leave us?  Do we have enough evidence to make a reasonable determination, or is this still an "open issue"?

I will echo these previous thoughts:
" you should show all FOUR versions (single & "double", i.e., of A & B),
and make the point explicitly.  Esp. as some tying methods might tend to
produce one or the other rather similarly.  And you can note that doubling
is an assurance of a decent/stable knot".

I still consider the issue open:  we've ONE user testimony, and that conflicts
with common sense (and internally--i.e., instructions conflict with the chosen
image).  We can hope for further information, still.  (Perhaps the one report
can be used to leverage information from others?)
Yes, though, in light of the tying method shown by B.Toss in his book CRA and the
same method seemingly reported by the tugboat captain, it seems that knot-B
makes sense for the name, and at least should be regarded as principal knot
of the contenders.  But there are good points to laying bare the associated knots
and their strengths/weaknesses, yes?  (even recently noted knots)

*knudeNoggin*

knot_tyer

  • Guest
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2005, 10:19:20 AM »
...i am a big fan of the "tugboat bowline/perfection loop"...and i have known
of the many variations...PvdG wrote of these with excellent
diagrams in Het Knoopeknauwertje...but (again!)...isn't there
an IGKT committee that takes care of these questions?!...and if not, i would like to nominate you all to be on the committee!!...
...(ps...these are excellent knot photos!...etc...)..
Dan-Alaska
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 10:23:30 AM by knot_tyer »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2005, 10:57:22 PM »
Quote
...i am a big fan of the "tugboat bowline/perfection loop"...and i have known
of the many variations...PvdG wrote of these with excellent
diagrams in Het Knoopeknauwertje...but (again!)...isn't there
an IGKT committee that takes care of these questions?!...and if not, i would like to nominate you all to be on the committee!!...
...(ps...these are excellent knot photos!...etc...)..
Dan-Alaska

It might be I whom you're thinking of, and the New-Knot Claims Assessment
Committee (NKCAC), but we're not all so much better at researching these sorts
of questions as this on-line group.

But, in any case, I'd sure love to see that PvdG article you refer to, and to open its
findings to others, here (& beyond)!
If you want to further explain Pieter's research here, fine; or you can mail a copy of
the article to me snail-wise (the IGKT Directory has my address).  It sounds wonderful.

Cheers,
--dl*  (Dan-Virginia)

Willeke

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
  • knopen . ismijnhobby . nl
    • Willeke's knotted Ideas
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2005, 11:39:24 PM »
Dan,
I have a scan of the said article on my computer, and if you give me your mail address I can mail it to you.
The texts are in Dutch but the conclusion on these pages is that all three are, at times, called tugboat bowline.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2005, 05:34:54 PM »
For now, I decided to simply say on my website that there appear to be two main knots which are referred to as the Tugboat Bowline:
http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#PerfectionLoop

Dave


knudeNoggin

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 111
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2005, 11:06:58 PM »
Quote
For now, I decided to simply say on my website that there appear to be two main knots which are referred to as the Tugboat Bowline:
http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#PerfectionLoop

Dave



Thanks for your continued good efforts at bringing these knots into
awareness.  Your statement that "All three of these knots are much
more stable when the end of the rope is wrapped around a second time"
falls beside the truth:  in fact, the Perfection/Anglers Loop is no more
stable (it is amply stable as is), and the Knot-B is pretty good as is,
though one needs be mindful to set it well.
Thus, it would be preferable to advise AGAINST the use of Knot-A
on account of its instability, and note that its desireable form is that
called the "Dble.Dragon" by Paul Kruse.  A side comment to this can
be that the Knot-B gains some stability from a similar "doubling".

I'm worried that your presentation order imparts a natural bias for
the inferior knot-A.  You might then reverse the order (nevermind
what we've discussed among ourselves), giving the well-known
Perfection Loop topmost, then Knot-B, & last AND least, Knot-A.
From this order, advise to "double" things neatly flows to just-viewed
Knot-A, with note about applicability to Knot-B.

While on the page, I notice you echo Ashley's admonition against the
so-called "Left-handed Bowline".  Frankly, I think that both the name
and certainly the admonition should be lost:  the name unfortunately
leads to some confusion about what "left-handed" means (the nature of
handedness is often not explained nor well understood re knots in laid ropes),
and as his opinion comes w/o any explanation, it's unhelpful
(but as dogma).  It has been noted elsewhere that in fact some navy
favors this version; and it can, as noted e.g. by Clyde Soles's book,
be more secure in shock cord (discussed in this forum).
Some will prefer to have the end clear of the eye; some will fear
having a snaggable end outside.
What to call it, then?
Beyond "end on outside version" I don't know.

*knudeNoggin*

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2005, 11:17:51 PM »
Thanks to Willeke, I've now seen the images from Piete van de Griend's
old article; he shows the Anglers Loop & knot-B, and apparently
invites one to find similar.

(-;

Willeke

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
  • knopen . ismijnhobby . nl
    • Willeke's knotted Ideas
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2005, 01:34:07 AM »
To stay with Pieter, he called one bowline an 'inside LH bowline', and an other an 'outside LH bowline'. Both are also available in RH versions. The inside or outside descibes whether the end is in the eye or outside and the LH and RH are for the way the initial loops are lefthanded or righthanded, or S or Z twist.

So knudeNoggin.
An inside bowline, the one prefered by the British (Royal) Navy or an outside bowline, the one prefered by the Dutch (Royal) Navy.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

knudeNoggin

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 111
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2005, 07:24:37 AM »
Quote
To stay with Pieter, he called one bowline an 'inside LH bowline', and an other an 'outside LH bowline'.  ...  initial loops are lefthanded or righthanded, or S or Z twist.
An inside bowline, the one prefered by the British (Royal) Navy or an outside bowline, the one prefered by the Dutch (Royal) Navy.
Willeke

The interesting/puzzling thing about a loop is that it is both-handed,
as it turns away from the spiral that would result from pure-handedness.
As for the naval points, PvdG calls both of the two by naval names, but one is
Naval (Marine Paalsteek) & the other Merchant Naval (Koopvaardij Paalsteek)
["Survival of the Simplest", which I believe graced KM and is included in his
history of the Constrictor, Letter to Lester as an appendix]
Though he says that such names don't exist in literature.

I was hoping to get a better match to the terms that might be used to distinguish
the corresponding bends--Same-side & Opposite-side Sheet Bends.

*knudeNoggin*

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2005, 08:38:51 PM »
Quote
Your statement that "All three of these knots are much more stable when the end of the rope is wrapped around a second time" falls beside the truth:  in fact, the Perfection/Anglers Loop is no more stable (it is amply stable as is), and the Knot-B is pretty good as is, though one needs be mindful to set it well. Thus, it would be preferable to advise AGAINST the use of Knot-A on account of its instability, and note that its desireable form is that called the "Dble.Dragon" by Paul Kruse.  A side comment to this can be that the Knot-B gains some stability from a similar "doubling".

The statement that Version-A and Version-B are much more stable in their "doubled" forms was actually based on yours and Dan Lehman's comments that "you should show all FOUR versions (single & "double", i.e., of A & B), and make the point explicitly. ... And you can note that doubling is an assurance of a decent/stable knot."  In looking back over this thread, I see that no-one ever suggested a doubled version of the Perfection Loop, so that must have been just me getting carried away...thanks for catching that!  I'll remove the doubled P.L.

Here's my concern.  People who have a lot of experience playing tennis or racquetball (for example) tend to develop "court sense," and people who have a lot of experience with knots probably tend to develop some "knot sense."  In other words, when an experienced climber sees Version-A for the first time, he will probably feel that he doesn't want to trust his life to it.  In contrast, the target audience of my website is the "average" person who maybe uses a rope a couple of times a year.  Without any "knot sense" to draw from, he would have no way of knowing or guessing whether Version-A is a stronger knot than, say, the Alpine Butterfly.  If he sees my website and tries out some knots, and a few months later he needs to use a rope for something, then in the case of the Tugboat I would hope that what stuck in his mind is that it should be doubled.  That was the reason for showing the two Tugboats and the P.L. and then giving the easy formula of "double them for stability."

But if the P.L. is "amply stable" without being doubled, I'm curious about how it compares with the doubled Version-A.  In other words, if the "average" person doesn't have the time or interest to learn a bunch of different knots for different applications, then would he benefit most from knowing the P.L. or the doubled Version-A (i.e. the Double Dragon)?  Or would Version-B (singled or doubled) be of more benefit as the one to stick with?  For those who enjoy learning more about knots, is it possible to differentiate these 3 knots by saying, "For these applications I would use the Perfection Loop, and for these applications I would use the Double Dragon, and for these applications I would use Version-B"? ???  So many questions, so little time!   ;D


Quote
I'm worried that your presentation order imparts a natural bias for the inferior knot-A.  You might then reverse the order (nevermind what we've discussed among ourselves), giving the well-known Perfection Loop topmost, then Knot-B, & last AND least, Knot-A. From this order, advise to "double" things neatly flows to just-viewed Knot-A, with note about applicability to Knot-B.

Then again, the original presentation order works as flowing from "worst" to "better" to "best"!  I'll try to clarify the order so that it is not implied that Version-A is best.


Quote
While on the page, I notice you echo Ashley's admonition against the so-called "Left-handed Bowline".  Frankly, I think that both the name and certainly the admonition should be lost:  the name unfortunately leads to some confusion about what "left-handed" means (the nature of handedness is often not explained nor well understood re knots in laid ropes), and as his opinion comes w/o any explanation, it's unhelpful (but as dogma).  It has been noted elsewhere that in fact some navy favors this version; and it can, as noted e.g. by Clyde Soles's book, be more secure in shock cord (discussed in this forum). Some will prefer to have the end clear of the eye; some will fear having a snaggable end outside.

Everything that I have seen in print or on the Web about the Left-Hand/Dutch/Cowboy Bwl has been essentially negative, although this is mainly because most of them are plagiarizing a single source!  :o  Today I have been Googling the Dutch Navy to find anything that they might say about the "Dutch Marine Bowline" (as it is sometimes called).  I found a list of websites and email addresses for Dutch frigates, subs, minehunters, torpedo vessels, etc. (even Dutch tugs!), but so far either the links don't work or else they're not in English.  I did find an English-language site with "news and data on all Dutch Navy vessels," so I sent them an email.  I guess for now I can simply say that some people have reservations about this knot, while others (such as the Dutch navy, although I haven't been able to verify that they actually use this knot) feel that it is superior to the standard bwl....

Dave

Willeke

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
  • knopen . ismijnhobby . nl
    • Willeke's knotted Ideas
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2005, 11:01:58 PM »
If the dutch have reservations about this knot it is because they use the same (English) books everone else does.

I will try a websearch later this week, now I am doing to many things at once as it is.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2005, 01:31:55 AM »
OK, updated the website.

BTW, if Tugboat B is a better or more stable knot than Tugboat A, then is the "doubled" Tugboat B a better knot than the "doubled" Tugboat A (i.e. the Double Dragon)?

Dave
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 01:39:14 AM by DaveRoot »

PaulKruse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2005, 09:49:51 PM »
All three are excellent knots that can be tied on a bight with just a couple flips of the wrist.  With a little practice, you can tie them in three seconds or less.  “B” is what I know as a Tugboat Bowline, but our riggers call it either the Fast Bowline or the Dragn’ Bowline.  The last name comes from a belief that it is not good for anything more than dragging on the ground.  Need to drag a log to the campfire?  Use this quick knot for this and similar non-critical applications.  Its main disadvantage is that it can be pulled out of form into an unstable configuration.

“A” is the same knot with an extra half twist.  I think it has already been correctly identified as an artillery loop.  I’ve never used it for anything, so I have no experience to speak from concerning it.

“C” is the same knot with the half twist in the opposite direction.  That makes it a Perfection Loop.  Very strong and very reliable, but it will jam into a pocketknife knot.  You will need a “rope wrench” to get it out.

“C” can also be tied by starting with a simple overhand slipknot.  If you don’t want it to jam, then double-wrap it.  It is amazing how many knots can start with an overhand slip.  Two of my favorites are the Alpine Butterfly and the Hunter Loop.  A slipped version of the Perfection Loop is very strong and reliable, and won’t jam.

A different Perfection Loop can also start out with a figure eight slipknot.  If you double wrap that, it is about the same strength as a figure eight loop.  This one can also be tied with a couple flips and twists of the wrist very quickly, and on the bight at that.

If you double-wrap “B” then you have what I’ve called the Double Dragon on these pages in the past.

It has been correctly pointed out that no one is going to use a Tugboat Bowline for a primary toe on a tugboat.  But you have a thousand other uses for non-critical loops when working on a tugboat, and this is a good knot for them.

Paul

PaulKruse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2005, 09:52:53 PM »
Sorry.  It looks like I had some formating problems with that last post.  Let's try again:

All three are excellent knots that can be tied on a bight with just a couple flips of the wrist.  With a little practice, you can tie them in three seconds or less.  B is what I know as a Tugboat Bowline, but our riggers call it either the Fast Bowline or the Dragn’ Bowline.  The last name comes from a belief that it is not good for anything more than dragging on the ground.  Need to drag a log to the campfire?  Use this quick knot for this and similar non-critical applications.  Its main disadvantage is that it can be pulled out of form into an unstable configuration.

A is the same knot with an extra half twist.  I think it has already been correctly identified as an artillery loop.  I’ve never used it for anything, so I have no experience to speak from concerning it.

C is the same knot with the half twist in the opposite direction.  That makes it a Perfection Loop.  Very strong and very reliable, but it will jam into a pocketknife knot.  You will need a “rope wrench” to get it out.

C can also be tied by starting with a simple overhand slipknot.  If you don’t want it to jam, then double-wrap it.  It is amazing how many knots can start with an overhand slip.  Two of my favorites are the Alpine Butterfly and the Hunter Loop.  A slipped version of the Perfection Loop is very strong and reliable, and won’t jam.

A different Perfection Loop can also start out with a figure eight slipknot.  If you double wrap that, it is about the same strength as a figure eight loop.  This one can also be tied with a couple flips and twists of the wrist very quickly, and on the bight at that.

If you double-wrap B then you have what I’ve called the Double Dragon on these pages in the past.

It has been correctly pointed out that no one is going to use a Tugboat Bowline for a primary toe on a tugboat.  But you have a thousand other uses for non-critical loops when working on a tugboat, and this is a good knot for them.



DaveRoot

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • The Most Useful Rope Knots....
Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2005, 05:25:44 PM »
Quote
If you double-wrap B then you have what I've called the Double Dragon on these pages in the past.

Good to hear from you, Paul, seems like it's been awhile!

According to the original pictures you presented, isn't the Double Dragon a double-wrapped "Tugboat A" instead of a double-wrapped "Tugboat B" (referring to my pictures at the top of this thread)?


Also, I'm curious which is the best knot, in terms of strength/stability/security:  The double-wrapped "Tugboat A," the double-wrapped "Tugboat B," or the standard Perfection Loop (or the Figure-eight Perfection Loop which Paul described above).  Anyone have any thoughts or opinions??

Dave
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 05:28:44 PM by DaveRoot »