Author Topic: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop  (Read 57969 times)

DaveRoot

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Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« on: May 30, 2005, 04:38:41 AM »
I have seen both of these referred to as a Tugboat Bowline:

Tugboat A:


Tugboat B:



Which one is the "real" Tugboat, and does the other one have a name?  Is the Tugboat Bowline the same as the Flying Bowline?

Also, this is the Perfection Loop, right?



I'd be interested in hearing the pros and cons of these knots when tied in rope.

Thx!

Dave

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2005, 07:11:36 AM »
Quote
Which is the real Tugboat Bwl?

This topic has been discussed on this forum previously, with major
contributions from Paul Kruse, who cites its use:
"The seamen all know this knot and I have no doubt that they use it
from time to time when they need a very quickly tied loop.  I've spent
time with the seamen fishing and SCUBA diving on private boats,
and I know they use it there."
He referred to Version-B of your images.

What makes one version "real"?!  --being in some book?
I'm only aware of the name being in Brion Toss's The Complete
Rigger's Apprentice
; and there, alas, the case is quite confused,
as my comments to him point out:

p.66-7, The Flying/Tugboat Bwl
The text clearly describes a "technique" for tying the previously shown
Perfection/Angler's Loop. But, the tying instructions and their associated
images conflict with the text of the main body, in that they more or less
clearly show a knot other than the Angler's Loop (EKFRp491#303)--but
with no image of the tied knot.

The text in the body of the book (i.e., not w/images) says "So they use
THIS KNOT instead [of a Bwl] and think so highly of it, DESPITE ITS
SHORTCOMINGS, ..." [my emphasis]. The only referent for "this knot"
for which any shortcomings have been cited is "Angler's Loop"--the
shortcoming being "a tendency to jam". "A form of" thus must denote
only an alternative tying method (as noted in #5 above), like those
several different "versions" & "variations" of the Bowline--the end
product always being the same knot.


With a Googling, I find some suggestion in others' discussions that
some sort of knot by the name exists, with some references clearly
pointing to the Angler's Loop (which is the only one to be claimed
more secure in PP ropes), and others less clear of what ... .

And the Anglers/Perfection loop is definitely your 3rd/lowest knot.
The above arguments suggest that one should regard the Tugboat/Flying
Bwl as = Anglers Loop, but I'd recommend not doing that--who needs
yet another name for it?
Of versions A & B, as previously noted (and this should be easily seen
by any who tie & test it), Version-A is liable to deform & capsize; thus,
I'd like to see the name "Tugboat Bwl" designate Version-B, provided
that in fact this is what one finds in use on tugboats--something I've
no information on, beyond Paul's testimony.  (Frankly, I don't consider
the knot to be a bowline--it lacks the essential nipping loop of the
SPart.)

Version-A modified with a full turn of the end (i.e.., take the end back
around and then back through the knot beside itself) yields a quite
nice-looking knot which I surmise tends to greater strength and easier
untying than other versions.  Both versions gain stability from the
extra turn just described.

--dl*
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Brian Grimley

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2005, 08:46:13 PM »
DaveRoot,

I would call the loop you labeled "Tugboat A" as the "Harness Loop" or "Artilleryman's Knot" or "Man-Harness Knot". ABOK #1050 and#153.

I have seen "Tugboat B" called the "Speed Bowline" in Bill Fry's, a juggler, "Knot Throwing" book (with a Warning / Disclaimer, i.e. NOT a bowline). But, I have no preference of the names "Speed", "Flying" or "Tugboat Bowline". Like Dan, I would be happy with "Tugboat Bowline".

I agree with Dan that "Tugboat C" is the "Angler's / Perfection loop".

The difference between Tugboat B (Tugboat Bwl) and Tugboat C (Perfection loop) is simply a half twist. Compare the second diagram of Tugboat B with the second diagram of Tugboat C. A half twist (top over bottom) of Tugboat B's right-hand loop gives the second diagram of Tugboat C.  

Since both loops can be Tied In the Bight, essentially, the same "speedy" method can be used to tie each loop with the addition or not of a half twist. Perhaps this caused some confusion with names (?).

If you can have a look at the 'detail' drawing on p66 of Brion Toss' "The Complete Rigger's Apprentice", his speedy method might help to illustrate the above. When Toss moves from the lower right diagram to the upper left, he twists both his wrists, tucks and creates the Tugboat Bwl (mirrow image of your Tugboat B).

However, if Toss only twisted his right wrist, and tucked the resulting bight through the loop remaining in his left hand, he would create the Perfection Loop.  

Frankly, Brion Toss' presentation of this drove (and still drives) me nuts! Bill Fry's presentation is much clearer for me! I hope the above makes sense - Brian.


KnotNow!

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2005, 11:09:19 PM »
Hi, I agree that the "Tugboat Bowline" is "The Anglers Loop" ABOK # 1017, by a different method.  It is also shown as "Perfection Loop"/"Angler's Loop" by Lindsey Philpott in his book "Knots, a complete guide" and as "Angler's Loop" by Brion Toss in "Complete Riggers Apprentice".  Brion then shows the other method, on the run as it were.  I too had trouble sorting out Brion's description of forming it by the "Flying Bowline" method.  To finally learn it I just tied up an anglers loop and loosened it enough to see which hand had to go where and backed up through the sequence until I and an untied rope.  Then I went forward again until I had the knot in again.  Back and forth until I could do it with some competence.  However I seem to have ended up on the other side of the mirror, to get ABOK #1017 or Perfection from Lindsey or Brion I have to start with the standing part to my left and work the working end with my right.  As to version A and B neither is perfection nor tugboat.  I don't put the anglers loop in anything that is not expendable. Works great for what it was designed for.  Seem to jam and become a hatched or knife knot which keeps it out of my rope.  And as much fun as I have had showing off the "Tugboat Bowline" I really can get a regular bowline into the line wihout breaking my stride so have relegated the Tugboat Bowline to being a party trick.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 09:23:46 AM »
Quote
I would call the loop you labeled "Tugboat A" as the "Harness Loop" or "Artilleryman's Knot" or "Man-Harness Knot". ABOK #1050 and#153.

I would give Brian an "A" for topology, but something more alphabetically
advanced
for nodology.   ;)  The Artillery loop is afterall intended to be
loaded in a series, and preferably with the eye pulled leftwards, as Ashley
orients it--prone to deform if pulled rightwards (though the result of that
is interesting).  Clearly what Dave shows is otherwise oriented.

Version-B is in EKFR, as I noted above, p491#303.  Hansel&Gretel call it
a Single Bwl on the Bight, for what that's worth (little).  I wonder where
they got it?  Again, I find the doubled version of A to be quite good
--something PABPRES might fancy as the ultimate NON-hatchet knot
(and which will give any knot a run for its money in the pull-test)!

(-;

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2005, 09:59:12 AM »
Well, on looking at #153, I see that Ashley there had the direction of
loading opposite what I surmised from #1050.  Hmmm.  But it is still
intended as more of an inline loopknot, of a series for several pullers
(not one person hauling a cannon), and so not like the knots at issue
here.  Moreover, the crossing of the eye's legs in the knot for Version-A
are pretty necessary for a chance at a stable knot, and the Artillery knot
reallly doesn't want them crossed (though one image shows it @1050).

--dl*
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DaveRoot

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2005, 05:01:28 PM »
Now that my computer is working again, let me see if I can summarize what we've got so far...

There is general agreement that the third set of pictures (above) is the Perfection Loop/Angler's Loop, but the Tugboat still seems to be up in the air.

Dan said that Paul Kruse elsewhere referred to "Tugboat B" (above) as the Tugboat Bowline:

Quote
This topic has been discussed on this forum previously, with major contributions from Paul Kruse, who cites its use: "The seamen all know this knot and I have no doubt that they use it from time to time when they need a very quickly tied loop.  I've spent time with the seamen fishing and SCUBA diving on private boats, and I know they use it there."
He referred to Version-B of your images.


However, in another thread Roo and Paul Kruse seemed to feel that "Tugboat A" (above) is the Tugboat Bowline/Flying Bowline/Artillery Loop/"single form of the Double Dragon":

Quote
I looked up the Flying Bowline or Tugboat Bowline.  It is not a Double Dragon Loop, but it is the "single" version of the loop, that is a form of the Artillery Loop as we discussed.   See the "detail" image on p. 66 of The Complete Rigger's Apprentice if you have access to it.  Be warned that the steps look as if they're presented in reverse order.


Dan pointed out that the Tugboat Bowline/Flying Bowline might be regarded as being the Angler's Loop/Perfection Loop based on the arguments he quoted, but he doesn't recommend doing that:

Quote
The above arguments suggest that one should regard the Tugboat/Flying Bwl as = Anglers Loop, but I'd recommend not doing that--who needs yet another name for it?


Instead, Dan's preference for the Tugboat Bowline is "Tugboat B," if in fact this is actually used on tugboats:

Quote
I'd like to see the name "Tugboat Bwl" designate Version-B, provided that in fact this is what one finds in use on tugboats--


Brian agreed that "Tugboat A" is the Artillery Loop, and he seems to agree that the Tugboat Bowline/Flying Bowline/Speed Bowline should be "Tugboat B":

Quote
I have seen "Tugboat B" called the "Speed Bowline" in Bill Fry's, a juggler, "Knot Throwing" book (with a Warning / Disclaimer, i.e. NOT a bowline). But, I have no preference of the names "Speed", "Flying" or "Tugboat Bowline". Like Dan, I would be happy with "Tugboat Bowline".


Roy said that the Tugboat Bowline is the same as the Perfection Loop/Angler's Loop (and also the Flying Bowline, if I read his post right):

Quote
Hi, I agree that the "Tugboat Bowline" is "The Anglers Loop" ABOK # 1017, by a different method.  It is also shown as "Perfection Loop"/"Angler's Loop" by Lindsey Philpott in his book "Knots, a complete guide" and as "Angler's Loop" by Brion Toss in "Complete Riggers Apprentice".  Brion then shows the other method, on the run as it were.  I too had trouble sorting out Brion's description of forming it by the "Flying Bowline" method. ... As to version A and B neither is perfection nor tugboat.


Dan mentioned that the doubled version of "Tugboat A" is quite a good knot, and I assume from this that he is referring to the Double Dragon (i.e "Tugboat A" with a second wrap of the dead end):

Quote
I find the doubled version of A to be quite good--something PABPRES might fancy as the ultimate NON-hatchet knot (and which will give any knot a run for its money in the pull-test)!



For whatever it's worth, the only picture of a "Tugboat Bowline" that I have seen online is this set of earrings: http://www.agacorrea.com/aga/cgi-bin/dispimg.pl?imageID=691.  However, I don't know where they got their information.


As for the pros and cons, the consensus seems to be that the Perfection Loop jams fairly easily, which is fine for anglers but not necessarily good in rope (depending on the application).  "Tugboat A" has similar strengths and weaknesses as the Artillery Loop (being topologically the same), and Dan pointed out that it is liable to deform & capsize.  "Tugboat A" modified with a full turn of the end (i.e. the Double Dragon) is quite good, and "Tugboat B" also gains stability from an extra turn.

So....it appears that there's no firm consensus on what is the "real" Tugboat Bwl (in whatever way we define "real").  The Tugboat Bwl and the Perfection Loop occasionally come up in email conversations, so I am planning to add them to my website.  The P.L. is pretty clear, but for the T.Bwl I'm trying to determine if I should show the pictures for "Tugboat A" or "Tugboat B."  Or perhaps should I simply show both sets of pictures as alternate versions of the Tugboat?  Just trying not to disseminate any inaccurate information!  :-)

Dave

Brian Grimley

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2005, 09:53:38 PM »
Dave,

This is just to help you out ... honest!

Here: http://dickeyfamilyresearch.com/knot_pics/Bowline_Start_0.htm , Glenn Dickey shows a "Bowline Menu Page".

Jumping to his "Bowline names and variation list", Glen Dickey references the "Tugboat Bowline" to Graumont and Hensel's "Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Rope Work", p. 588, Plate 314, Fig. 2.

As Dan pointed out, your Tugboat B is shown in EKFR, p.491, fig. 303 and G&H call it "Single Bowline on the Bight".

I compared G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" to your Tugboat B. I thought that if I cut the loop of your "Tugboat B" and called these the standing and working ends; then, joined your standing and working ends to form a loop, that "Tugboat B var." would be the same as G&H's "Tugboat Bowline".  Unfortunately, they are not - the final tuck is different. I then wondered if G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" could be tied in the bight. It can, so it is another knot that should be considered as the proper "Tugboat Bowline". Let's hope I am wrong.  ;D

Brian.


Brian Grimley

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 10:07:44 PM »
This software did the childish censorship thing again. It substituted "thingy" for part of Glen's surname.

Substitute "thingy" with d?ck, were ? = i in the URL. Substitute "thingy" with D?ck, were ? = i when you read his name.

Brian.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2005, 12:13:20 AM »
Quote
Dan mentioned that the doubled version of "Tugboat A" is quite a good knot, and I assume from this that he is referring to the Double Dragon (i.e "Tugboat A" with a second wrap of the dead end).

Yes; the 2nd wrap provides good stability, and then the greater deformation
of this version I think gives superior strength & ease of untying.  (YMMV)

Quote
the only picture of a "Tugboat Bowline" that I have seen online is this set of earrings: http://www.agacorrea.com/aga/cgi-bin/dispimg.pl?imageID=691.  However, I don't know where they got their information.

Good find!!

Quote

As for the pros and cons, the consensus seems to be that the Perfection Loop jams fairly easily, which is fine for anglers but not necessarily good in rope (depending on the application).

Rather, "necessary" for anglers.  Might be desireable behavior for some rope
uses where the jamming is of the "won't loosen" sort but not loaded so much
to be "welded".

Quote
 "Tugboat A" has similar strengths and weaknesses as the Artillery Loop (being topologically the same), and Dan pointed out that it is liable to deform & capsize.

Whoa!  "Being t. the same" is NOT a basis for similar behavior--all TIB knots
are that with no knot, but of course have different behavior!  My point was
quite the contrary:  that the Artillery loop was a different knot, despite its
t. similarity.

Quote

So....it appears that there's no firm consensus on what is the "real" Tugboat Bwl (in whatever way we define "real").

And so you should show all FOUR versions (single & "double", i.e., of A & B),
and make the point explicitly.  Esp. as some tying methods might tend to
produce one or the other rather similarly.  And you can note that doubling
is an assurance of a decent/stable knot, for those who don't want to try to
remember the differences--just do A "Double" and it will be okay.  As for what
tugboat workers use, that remains a research item (and might yield a set of
knots, not any single one).

As for Hansel&Gretel, well, who knows what they were thinking.  To my eye,
NOW (contrary a note in the margin of my copy of the book written by me
some time ago), I see the shorter end going down Over-OVER-Under ... ,
and note that this knot can't be any of the above even with the two ends
joined to be the eye (were OVER->UNDER, then it would).

--dl*
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KnotNow!

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2005, 05:22:17 AM »
I tend to be wrong at the top of my lungs.  Did it again in print.  This thread made me go back to Brion's book and the "Tugboat Bowline".  I missundetstood his instructions and now I have made a "flying perfection loop".  Then, after apologizing to all present (and Brion), I need to find all the folks who have taught me "speed bowlines"... never mind that some of the folks called the knots "bowlines on a bight".. please don't open that can of worms... I will now say that I don't know what the tugboat bowline is!   I'll say that I can now tie the perfection loop "on the fly".  The testing I did of the Tugboat was based on the Perfection, so my previous discussions on "this breaks before that" are worthless.  Now I don't know "what" to test against "what".  I don't see this thread as settled yet or resolved.  And yes; Dan;  Publishing a name for a knot is the "naming of a knot" at least as far as I can cope.  As a case in point the "Dragon Bowline" is intended as joke.. it is a standard bowline tied and dragged along the deck.  This goes back with me for 45 years.  Now, somehow, it is a "real knot" to the arborists and some very knowledegable folks.   Look at the arborists sites and find a consensis as to what is the "Dragon Bowline" (which they don't think to be a joke)
"Tugboat Bowline" or Flying Bowline or Speed Bowline are not jokes but the Dragon has always been such.
 I don't know how to judge altered knots.   I guess if it is judged by how proficiently a novice can tie it..or in what size hawser it can be made.. or how badly it jams.  I don't think we have settled it.  Several of the people who have done "speed bowlines" may have shown me several different knots, which may be different from perfection or a "flying" knot...  but once I had it set in my head that they were teaching me "perfection loops by a different method"... well there I go... foot in mouth.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

DaveRoot

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2005, 04:30:11 PM »
Thx for the topology correction!

Hmmmm...sounds like Graumont and Hensel's "Tugboat" is different than the two variations I posted, and Brian has offered to tie it and send me a pic.  I'm thinking I'll show all of these variations which have been published as the "Tugboat," and simply point out that an extra wrap of the end makes these more stable (is this also true for G&H's version?).

Now to throw another twist into the mix.  Paul Kruse was fond of the "Figure 8 Perfection Loop," as he called it, but now I can't find his discussion of it on this forum.  I was just looking at it the other day, was it deleted for some reason??.  Has anyone else used this, and does it seem worthy of note?

Dave


Dan_Lehman

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 12:59:03 AM »
Quote
Hmmmm...sounds like Graumont and Hensel's "Tugboat" is different than the two variations I posted, and Brian has offered to tie it and send me a pic.  I'm thinking I'll show all of these variations which have been published as the "Tugboat," and simply point out that an extra wrap of the end makes these more stable (is this also true for G&H's version?).

The Hansel&Gretel so-named knot IS different, in two ways:  firstly, it has
the eye-legs & ends (SPart & end) swapped--i.e., it takes the basic crossing-knot
form in the opposite orientation--; and it differs in the particular crossings.
As such, it lacks most of the good qualities cited for the other versions, and
to my mind is vulnerable to slipping & spilling.  I don't see a good reason for
giving this knot further publicity?  For all we know, H&G simply botched some
record they had of a bona fide knot, or else just cooked this thing up on the fly.
(And it seems that cited site of many bowlines has given publicity to some
more of the dubious structures found in H&G--all because they are THERE.
Echoing mistakes might be knotting tradition, but one that should end.)

Quote

Paul Kruse was fond of the "Figure 8 Perfection Loop," as he called it, but now I can't find his discussion of it on this forum.  I was just looking at it the other day, was it deleted for some reason??.  Has anyone else used this, and does it seem worthy of note?

Just giving a half-turn/-twist to the Angler's Loop before tucking out the eye
bight is perhaps what Paul presented; it lacks the security of the Overhand-based
Perfection loop, which should make untying easier, but I don't know that it
has more or as much to offer as Ashley's #1043.

--dl*

DaveRoot

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 02:05:22 PM »
For those who haven't seen G&H's Tugboat Bwl, here are some pics that Brian sent me:



Dave

Brian Grimley

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Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2005, 12:31:36 AM »
Dave, thank you for posting the pictures of the "H&G's Tugboat Bwl".

I looked again at the third picture of Dave's Tugboat B (Tugboat Bowline) to try to understand its relationship with the "H&G's Tugboat Bwl".

First, let me call the bight on the right hand side of Dave's third Tugboat B picture, "Bight 1". Going to the left, let me call the second bight, "Bight 2".

Now, starting with Dave's third Tugboat B picture, move the working end to be parallel to and beside the standing part. Then, flip "Bight 2" to lie over the parallel working and standing parts. Holding the working and standing parts together, tighten the knot with the free hand. What do we have? We have "H&G's Tugboat Bwl"!

That, I think, is the relationship between the two knots -the "Tugboat Bowline" and the "H&G's Tugboat Bowline".

Crossing my fingers - Brian.