Author Topic: Binding Knots/Structures  (Read 6681 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Binding Knots/Structures
« on: July 15, 2008, 07:48:52 PM »
The following post on r.c.k (rec.crafts.knots) brought forth enough ideas worth sharing
so I thought I'd echo it in this knotting forum.

Quote
On Jul 13, 11:40 am, dmd <ddela...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> My candidate for the best sack-closing knot:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/davidmdelaney/bag-knot/bag-knot.html

And you judge it "best" because ... ?
1) "this knot binds almost as well as the constrictor knot",
2) "it is easy to tie"
3) "and remember"

To 1, one might ask Why not use the Constrictor?
--indeed, this comes up in my discussion below.
To 2, I take issue (see below).
And to 2 & 3, one should be able to learn any of many different
knots well; it comes down to some practice and repetition of tying.
I recall ages ago some fellow at a restored mill binding bags with
who-knows-what (i.e., I don't recall), and doing so quite ably.  YMMV

I take issue with some of your assertions, and in doing so offer what
might be a much simpler/quicker/material-efficient tying method!

>>> "Without the loop, the knot is difficult to untie"

??  I don't find it si hard to untie:  simply haul away on the END
in which you form a slip-bight (or which part corresponds to the end
of the hitch #1674), which pries out material of the other end, and
the knot is pretty easily further loosened & untied.  (JUST AS IS
the case for the Constrictor--contrary all the parroted "it must be cut"
nonsense that Ashley's words and knot authors' ignorance propagate!)

Having the parallel leg of the slip-bight slightly lessens the friction
nipping that end secure, btw.

>>> "The procedure is suitable for fast blind tying."

Rather, tying the knot as you present is slower, more involved
in making time-consuming tucks than is needed.

For both #1244 AND the Ground-line Hitch (#1243 - 1676/1680),
TIE THE KNOT IN REVERSE DIRECTION.  This enables one to
limit the quantity of material used (assuming that one is working
with a batch of cord to be cut upon completion), and it also removes
the need to lift or hold open one part in anticipation of a later tuck!

For the Reverse Ground-line Hitch (a knot used by commercial
fishermen in many binding applications where the cord runs from
knot to knot to knot (sometimes making several spiral wraps of
the bound items, sometimes w/little span between knots),
first make a Half-hitch around the object, which should be
able to be pulled moderately tight; then cast the closing HHitch
appropriately to finish the knot, locking the (hand-held) first
end smartly, w/minimal waste of material.  (In the Com.Fish
binding, sometimes an additional 1-3 such castings of forewards
& backwards-oriented HHitches are cast after the initial structure
is formed.  FOR A GREAT IMAGE OF THIS, SEE:
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/knots-and-cordages/PICASA_Slideshow/Chalut_trawls_concarneau/index.html
 and i.p.
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/knots-and-cordages/PICASA_Slideshow/Chalut_trawls_concarneau/target9.html

(where one can deduce that the tying moved leftwards, in paired
cord, with the penultimate HH made on left edge, then final on
the right edge, cord leading back away leftwards to flow into
under up into the next knot in the sequence, to the left)

Taking advantage of this build-up of HHs one can bind a bag
reasonably quickly.

NOW, for #1244, try tying it with the slip-bight (or unslipped end)
positioned first, and then make a big turn around the bag,
and THEN TAKE THIS AMPLE TURN, PUT IN THE REQUISITE
TWIST, AND CAST THE FORMED LOOP OVER THE BAG END,
and bring it down to adjust into #1244 (it also could be brought
down to add an 2nd crossing over the first end).  If one twists
this large bight one way, the Constrictor is produced, as Ashley
shows in #1251. (Btw, #1253--slow to form--seems a great binder.)
This method should be quickest where the bag end (or whatever
sort of bound-items-end one has) is reasonably compact and
so easily encompassed by the twisted bight of cord.  And it
re-(re-)orients the knot to the bag, so that the twisted bight
can be cast over the bag end.

Another effective binder is a Clove hitch--which can  be quickly
tied or cast-, with the ends tied off in a Simple knot (such as
the start to tying one's shoelaces) which locks nicely against
the crossing part of the Clove.  The effectiveness of this binder
depends on some friction between cord and bound material
 
------------------

Fiddling with these knots and not a bag but a collection of
rope bights of a handy hank of 3/8" & 7/16" ropes, which
makes for more of a challenge in that the binding cord
will have many *voids* to cross over, where no binding
against the object can occur--it happens in the binding cord
with itself (or fails).  For such situations, one can start with
a loopknot at one end, then reeve the working end through
the eye 2 or 3 times to pull on an capsize the wraps to
form a friction-gripping coil in the eye, and go from there
with tighting an initial wrap, and building up upon this
with some successive binding wrap.  (I recall seeing a
workman use 3/16" laid polypropylene line to bind some
coil of underground (to be...) cable tubing, where the
hard plastic surface of that would give scant purchase
for the cord.  He used some sequence of steps in which
he seemed to be pulling cord through a an eye.)

--dl*
====




roo

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Re: Binding Knots/Structures
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 08:05:35 PM »
When the Constrictor or Boa Knot is tied around flexible material, it can often be more easily untied by bending the flexible material so that the knot form is inside the elbow.  This allows some slack to be introduced into the knot.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Binding Knots/Structures
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 11:32:30 PM »
As knots grow more cumbersome, such as the Boa (or near-Boa #1201, is it?),
it becomes difficult to get them very tight.  I have good success using a multiple
Strangle with 1 extra crossing of the ends, qua whipping, with a good strong
pull and also squeezing w/pliers (thinking I'm helping distribute the great tension
in the turns at the knot edges into the central coils--might be that some part
of the evening of tension is simply losing it back out ... !).

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 02:34:40 PM by Dan_Lehman »

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Binding Knots/Structures
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 05:15:04 AM »
This is one of my very favorite knots.  i find it very good as stated, and also as an anchoring termination.  When used as a termination around a tree to anchor, then slipped with bight as shown; we would do so with plenty of line left.  Then, we could pull the slip (after the brunt of impact was taken by the locked lacing) and convert to controlled lowering or other controlled paying out of line under load.  The remaining crossed -round turn could give plenty of brake force, and then gradually decreased by uncrossing, then walking around trunk (to reduce turns).  Because the release and unwinding can be so much quicker (and tying too) than a constirctor, there is much more fingertip control, and this is a good production place knot for the speed.

This lacing is very similar to the constrictor.  Only with a constrictor you make the clove, then lay the bitters under the direct pull of the main load to secure.  In this lacing, you just don't make the final tuck with the clove , and finish same as constrictor.  It is the finish that is supreme i think for 2 reasons.  A) The lacing takes a full round turn to reduce the main line force then cross that so maybe a baby could hold it.  Then take that reduced force and place it under the main pull.  B) Many knots try to do same, but not many then force the bitters and Working line to remain square, locked in; and also inline too.  This is the basic example of the need for stabilized forces in square, granny, thief as pointed out long ago by someone hear ::) .  Even the combo grief -whatknot shows this need for locked stabilization in compairing its 2 forms as a magic act between secure and slip.  Even the similairties and differences between this and the groundlline bear this need for stabilization out.  Rope isn't stiff, and more prone to locking as steel and logs.  Rope is flexible and will try to move, so is best stabilized!

Another differences is that the constrictor is symmetrical/ same pulled from either direction, while this lacing isn't; and might even be more secure in moderate lines when pulled backwierds.  for then the Standing pull bites down on 2 lines, rather than 1!

Dang i miss this stuff...

At any rate this is a darn good lacing for the arsenal, for many things.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:30:24 AM by TheTreeSpyder »