Author Topic: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend  (Read 12711 times)

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 08:26:25 PM »
Hi dear all, base on the characteristics of the ABOK#1426, I beleive the Rigger's Bend #1425A was a modification bend from #1426. Comments are welcome.

yChan

agent_smith

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 04:55:17 AM »
Indeed... The current designation of #1425A for Riggers bend could have been (instead) #1426A!
With only a minor re-positioning of one tail (changing where one tail feeds through the structure) you do end up with Phil D Smith's Riggers bend.

So I think that what you say has merit.

It is also possible to surmise that Phil Smith might have accidentally tied Riggers bend while fiddling with #1426...and he had a Eureka moment :)  Although there is no history reported about how Phil Smith was inspired to create his bend or how he came up with the idea. I think the creative spark/inspiration can give us clues to how some knots were discovered (even if it was by accident or through just 'tinkering' with ideas).

Mark G
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 04:55:56 AM by agent_smith »

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 10:18:58 AM »
Yes, I agree the Rigger's Bend (Hunter's Bend) should be coded as #1426A, for it is a modification of #1426, and also by the reason that #1425A is completely different from #1425 Ashley's Bend.

yChan

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 11:01:19 AM »
Here are photos for the outlook of these two bends.

yChan

knotsaver

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2017, 10:45:42 AM »
Hi dear all, base on the characteristics of the ABOK#1426, I beleive the Rigger's Bend #1425A was a modification bend from #1426. Comments are welcome.

yChan

Hi siriuso,
if we talk about tying methods, to my mind the 1425A is close to #1452 too.
In my (old) italian edition of the ABoK there isn't a 1425A and when I knew the Hunter's Bend I drew its diagram as #1452bis.
Why?
(if you want you can stop and think about it, if you already don't know it, or you can go ahead ;) )
--

They differ "only" in the exit of the tails: I mean the Ashley's Bend (#1452) and
the Hunter's Bend are composed by 2 like-handed loops, the WorkingEnds of
the second loop enters from the same side of the other WE but the 2 ends
exit from the same side in Ashley's and from the opposite sides in
Hunter's!

Please try tying these 8 bends (perhaps you already have done this):

start from a first loop, then tie another loop entering in the first in
- 2 possible ways (the WE of the second loop enters from the same side of
the WE of the first loop or from the opposite side)
then tie
- 2 possible different handed loops then consider
- 2 possible ways the WE/tails exit from the central part of the 2 loops

(you can see also
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3204.msg19380#msg19380 )

However I don't understand too why the Hunter's Bend was named #1425A,
#1425 is the reverse of the false Zeppelin X (X=crossed tails),
(maybe I was able by changing some crossing to obtain a reverse Hunter's Bend but now I don't remember how   :-\ )

Ciao,
s.

p.s. Perhaps Ashley didn't like bends with ends exiting from opposite sides...there are only a few of them in ABoK and often they are for using with twine!?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 10:55:17 AM by knotsaver »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 02:52:20 AM »
However I don't understand too why the Hunter's Bend was named #1425A,
#1425 is the reverse of the false Zeppelin X (X=crossed tails),
(maybe I was able by changing some crossing to obtain a reverse Hunter's Bend but now I don't remember how   :-\ )
I surmise that it's a matter of space --there's a big
opening on these facing pages w/#1425 et al.!

Let me remind folks that the simple crossing/twisting
of tails of SmitHunter's bend (#1425a) yields what
I think most will regard as a better version --more
resistant to jamming, as tail material gets pushed
into the collar space.  (Xarax had posted a nice
image of this, cited somewhere above, I think.)

--dl*
====

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2017, 06:57:45 PM »
Hi Ciao, about the tying methods. I tie these bends in several start methods and have worked on which bdpg formation that the bend may achieve. I will show you some of my works. Thank you.

yChan

knotsaver

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 05:07:03 PM »

#1425 is the reverse of the false Zeppelin X (X=crossed tails),
(maybe I was able by changing some crossing to obtain a reverse Hunter's Bend but now I don't remember how   :-\ )

...if you consider the reverse of the #1425 and change the way the (new, of the reverse bend) tails are crossed you will obtain a reverse #1425A (note you can cross the tails in 2 ways)
or more simply (!) start from a Granny knot (left over right - left over right, so you change the first crossing of the Standing Parts in Ashley's 1425 diagram) and then follow the diagram...  ;)
Try tying it  ;)

Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 05:46:19 PM by knotsaver »

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 10:23:28 AM »
Hi Ciao, here is the notes. I have named a bend as False Hunter's Bend. Is it FZB? From this diagram the tying step will show the two loops met together, it is easy to distinguish whether it is locked/link or superimposed.

yChan
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 10:25:49 AM by siriuso »

knotsaver

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2017, 01:05:53 PM »
Hi Ciao, here is the notes. I have named a bend as False Hunter's Bend. Is it FZB? From this diagram the tying step will show the two loops met together, it is easy to distinguish whether it is locked/link or superimposed.

yChan

Ciao siriuso,
(we use "Ciao" as "hello" too)
the sketches are very nice! :) bravo!
the YLB is wrong, what should it be?
I think it is right to call FHB/FZB False Zeppelin, because the 2 loops are not interlinked, (by the way, this Bend is an auto-reverse Bend (it is equal to its reverse) as the #1452!).
However I don't understand how you count/enumerate...
we could add the Hunter X, the #1452 X, the ShakeHands not X...
did you try tying the #1425A starting from the Granny knot and then following Ashley's #1425 diagram?
Maybe I will try an enumeration... :-\
Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 02:28:57 PM by knotsaver »

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2017, 05:25:59 PM »
Hi knotsaver, YLB stands for Y-lock Bend which has been posted by me in "My Working Notes". In my notes, I tied these bends in several ways which are different from the known tying methods. So they are the other tying methods or new methods, sometimes I named them, e.g. fork in, spiral drops, pecking duck, to indicate the action.
I have made a chart for these family bends. The one I just posted here is an extract from the chart. I will include this chart and some extracts in my Part 5 later coming to post in this forum.
I will try what you suggested, thanks.

yChan
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 05:27:33 PM by siriuso »

siriuso

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Re: ABOK1426 twofold overhand bend
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2017, 06:30:19 AM »
Hi knotsaver, I use the bdpg method to further to accertain my opinion on #1425A is an variation of #1426. They are so close.
You can achieve #1426 by tying #1425A with ends crossing. You will get #1426. The outlook and the tying steps are with little differences. But if you use Ashley's method (start with an Overhand Knot) like #1426 or #1453 to tie #1426, you will not go easy to find the small difference between them.

yChan
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 05:07:55 AM by siriuso »