Author Topic: Grapple hitch  (Read 26196 times)

Snowman

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Grapple hitch
« on: July 01, 2008, 05:30:22 AM »
Hello All
I have found a site discussing a so called "grapple hitch"
http://www.skytopia.com/project/articles/knot/knots.html

I have used the knot for approx six months on several projects. I do not see any major issues with this knot and I did not see it with quick peek in ABOK.

I like the knot but I am knot a knot expert. Comments?

roo

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 06:44:26 AM »
Hello All
I have found a site discussing a so called "grapple hitch"
http://www.skytopia.com/project/articles/knot/knots.html

I have used the knot for approx six months on several projects. I do not see any major issues with this knot and I did not see it with quick peek in ABOK.

I like the knot but I am knot a knot expert. Comments?

I hope Daniel (who I believe is the author of the linked site) doesn't mind me sharing an e-mail I sent him in reply when he e-mailed me a little over a year ago about this hitch:

***
Hi Daniel,

I've looked over the Grapple Hitch a little more and I have some
observations about it:

After a little testing, I wouldn't be surprised if it had security
equivalent to a buntline hitch or slipped bunline hitch when the
hitches are drawn up to the object (as is intended for the buntline
family).  The Grapple Hitch does use a little more rope, but that is
a somewhat minor issue.

I noticed on your website that you were giving demerits to hitches
for not being "adjustable".  That may be inappropriate for two
reasons.  First, most hitches aren't intended to act that way, but
rather to be easy to tie and untie (among many other possible
requirements).  Second, the Grapple Hitch tends to slip (contract)
under heavy load, as I've noted before, thus making adjustability
moot.  If you pull the free end to change the knot shape, that may
make slipping less likely, but may not be effective with all rope
types.

I have noted before how the Grapple Hitch may be difficult to learn
or remember, but I think that may be remedied by the manner in which
it is diagrammed.  The over-and-under sequence is simpler than it
initially appears. 

The Grapple can be a little fiddly to untie after heavy strain, but
it did not seem to jam.

All things considered, it deserves further testing and consideration.
I get the feeling I've seen the Grapple's geometry elsewhere, but
it's not immediately coming to mind.  You may check out a few knot
books from the library to check.

[Signature]

P.S. There is a whole family of adjustable loops/adjustable hitches
that have a similar function to the Grapple.  Many are based on tying
a "hitch" around the standing part of the rope to form a loop.
***
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 06:45:11 AM by roo »
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Snowman

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Re: Grapple hitch aka #1231
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 03:58:20 PM »
Thanks Roo
I just found the "grapple hitch" in ABOK as #1231, not sure why I did not notice before.

roo

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Re: Grapple hitch aka #1231
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 06:11:12 AM »
Thanks Roo
I just found the "grapple hitch" in ABOK as #1231, not sure why I did not notice before.

Ah, I was wondering where I saw it before.  Well done.  It's not presenting with the same handedness, and it's not even under the hitch section in Ashley.  Ashley is using it as a binder.  I don't think anyone would remotely expect you to notice it before. :)
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DaveRoot

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 03:21:02 PM »
If you tie an Adjustable Grip Hitch (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Hitches.htm#AdjustableGripHitch) but only take the Working End once around the Standing Part, this is similar to the Grapple Hitch.

The difference is that the Adjustable Grip Hitch tucks the Working End under itself, but the Grapple Hitch tucks the Working End under the Standing Part.  This seems to give the Grapple Hitch some extra gripping action due to the friction from the Working End, in addition to a bit of a "dog-leg" that's created in the Standing Part when you dress the knot by pulling on the Working End.

Dave

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 06:24:01 PM »
I have found a site discussing a so called "grapple hitch"
http://www.skytopia.com/project/articles/knot/knots.html
...

Wow, after scanning this exclamation of hype, I can't help but wonder how the
world survived awaiting such earthshaking news!    :o

Methinks the raver has as limited a set of cordage to play with as he has knots
and realization of knotting.  Do Not Pass Go.

 :-[

Snowman

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2008, 01:43:03 PM »
I agree the knot is not the superknot as author claims. Perhaps the Zepplin is....
I am sure the author believed he truely discovered a new knot and became excited.
It won't replace my use of a bowline or zepplin loop but maybe, just maybe, it maybe become more used than a midshipmen's loop (for example)
The 1231 is easy to tie (an overhand loop, a wrap around and through )

Dan, thanks for your comment. Which knot/s would you use as a friction loop?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2008, 05:52:35 PM »
I agree the knot is not the superknot as author claims. Perhaps the Zepplin is....
No, neither is.  But the latter could see some better popularity, and I think some regular
use in the crab-fishing potwarps of those Deadliest Catch Alaskan fishermen (who
favor the Carrick bend, I hear--briefly glimpsed, in the show).

Quote
I am sure the author believed he truely discovered a new knot and became excited.
So do I, but his excitement is mostly stupidity, and lousy critical examination of the
knot discovered--e.g., it's pretty easy to see that it won't hold in some common materials
and loads (something one should be chary of just from visual examination of the knot).
And then the suggestion that so many long-standing knots are superfluous (well, he
offers a weasel clause of "specialized use" which might turn out to be invoked often),
goes way beyond the pale.  E.g., the Fisherman's knot (a bend) isn't about to be replaced
by Rosendahl's Zep. bend:  the former draws up more solidly, w/ends aligned w/SParts,
w/ good abrasion resistance and quick tying; it's used in materials small and large, where
the joint is expected to be permanent (or cut away, infrequently).  (If one's ropes are
breaking, in normal useage, of what sense is "stronger"?)

Quote
It won't replace my use of a bowline or zepplin loop...
You might be surprised to realize that there are several loopknots corresponding
to the Rosendahl's Zep. bend.  One can assume various conceptions of what such a
knot-pairing (bend<->LK) should be.  (Consider, e.g., the difference between the
commonly associated Butterfly such knots and the Bowline/SheetBend and similarly
to this the RZ knots:  in the former, one simply chops the LK eye to yield the bend;
not so, in the latter pairs.  There are other conceptions to these.  (E.g., one might
observe that the Sheet Bend is asymmetric, and the Bowline can be seen to
derive from just one aspect of this asymmetry; the other can also yield a LK!))

 
Quote
but maybe, just maybe, it maybe become more used than a midshipmen's loop (for example)
The 1231 is easy to tie (an overhand loop, a wrap around and through )
Not if you have to make fast quickly--#1231 (good eye, btw!) isn't quickly formed,
under tension, especially; but one can quickly cast half-hitches/roundturns (and
even build a series of such structures, buying time for a more involved finish.

Quote
Dan, thanks for your comment. Which knot/s would you use as a friction loop?

This question suggests the too-common bias in thinking:  i.e., that some **knot**,
qua general schema for arranging material, comes with practical characteristics,
which actually often obtain only upon instantiation in particular material(s).

Friction hitches are tricky, and their uses various.  E.g., in that cited Midshipmnan's
loop, it sometimes at least seems to be something put in as a quick LK, NOT to be
subsequently "adjusted" or slipped & re-gripped; but in other cases, the latter
function is exactly the need.  Sometimes, friction hitches seem treacherous.
I recall using a Hedden hitch in thin, polyester cable-hauling tape around a rope
I was tensioning:  it held fine for the initial loading, but then slipped to re-grip,
it failed to hold--rather dramaticly, in fact!! ??  Huh?!  I couldn't figure out what
had happened, to make this night-&-day behavior.  One can read notes of caution
about the surety of various friction hitches making the initial bite & grip, in the
commentary by arborists/tree-climbers.  YMMV by materials, diameters, and
loading!?

--dl*
====

roo

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2008, 07:02:13 PM »

 E.g., the Fisherman's knot (a bend) isn't about to be replaced
by Rosendahl's Zep. bend:  the former draws up more solidly,
Both seem to draw up solidly.  The Fisherman Knot variations are jam-prone, though, as you know.

Quote
w/ends aligned w/ Standing Parts,
Which seems to be a problem, not an asset.  Those acute angles act like hooks to snag on objects.

Quote
w/ good abrasion resistance
This is an unusual requirement.  I suppose that the bulk of Fisherman Knot variations might provide more surface area for abrasion, but unless you're dragging rope from behind your car, I just can't imagine this being a big factor.

Quote
and quick tying;
Maybe compared to some knots, but not when compared with a Zeppelin Bend.

Quote
it's used in materials small and large
As is the Zeppelin Bend.

Quote
, where the joint is expected to be permanent (or cut away, infrequently). 
A tacit acknowledgement of its problem with jamming.

I don't mean to divert this thread.  Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 10:44:15 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 03:19:58 PM »
Both seem to draw up solidly.  The Fisherman Knot variations are jam-prone, though, as you know.
The F. is compactly solid, round; the RZ. is more open, flat (the "flat" aspect
presents a great face for dragging over a surface, with collar-away).  Jamming, you
seem to see as a problem:  perhaps for most if not all applications in commercial
fishing, it's not.

Quote
Quote
w/ends aligned w/ Standing Parts,
Which seems to be a problem, not an asset.  Those acute angles act like hooks to snag on objects.
Not at all:  the aligned ends are easily tucked (through lay) or taped and out of play (say,
running up through a pot hauler).

Quote
Quote
w/ good abrasion resistance
This is an unusual requirement.
Through a pot hauler, over the seabed, over the rail, the deck; or of climbing slings,
against the wall & misc. abrasions.  Over time, protuding edges will tell the tale.

Quote
Quote
it's used in materials small and large
As is the Zeppelin Bend.
As could be ... ?
FYI, my com.fish.binding cord key rings connector sling is closed w/the RZB, the
ends quite short mushrooms of fray (natural stoppers).

Quote
Quote
, where the joint is expected to be permanent (or cut away, infrequently). 
A tacit acknowledgement of its problem with jamming.
I have no intent of being other than explicit:  jamming isn't an issue against ... !
If you have mile-long ground lines joined of say 4 pieces of varied ages (or not),
one of which needs replacing, chopping out a section and putting in something
new (and, yes, there might be preference for a short splice!) with the waste of
maybe a metre of material out of this just doesn't rise to a level of concern.
(Though Nautile insists that the French cling to every last fibre, and once photo'd
some piece of rope with several joints in what was maybe only ten feet long!!?)

And there might be a problem with knots that don't jam vis-a-vis chafe.
 
:)

J.Knoop

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 08:37:13 PM »
Abrasion resistance is no unusual requirement for commercial fisherman knots.
They usually operate 24 hours a day, often  in muddy water, over rocks and all sorts of hauling equipment.
Factors which add significantly to abrasion.

roo

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 02:57:22 PM »
Abrasion resistance is no unusual requirement for commercial fisherman knots.
They usually operate 24 hours a day, often  in muddy water, over rocks and all sorts of hauling equipment.
Factors which add significantly to abrasion.


It is unusual considering how often it doesn't come up on this board or in rec.crafts.knots.  We've likely had thousands of posts concerning security, strength, ease of tying, and so forth, but abrasion issues are noticeably absent.

I suspect that most people just replace their ropes or at least cut out damaged sections when they fray too much, rather than think to themselves, "how can I modify the bend I use to make it more abrasion resistant?"
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 11:19:21 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 07:34:38 PM »
It is unusual considering how often it doesn't come up on this board or in rec.crafts.knots.  We've likely had thousands on posts concerning security, strength, ease of tying, and so forth, but abrasion issues are noticeably absent.

And that is a revelation of the nature of those who post to such forums
rather than a meaningful measure of real rope users!
(Remembering the Guild of Knot Tyers who could staff a show'n'tell booth
at a big West Coast maritime festival but apparently couldn't make it out of
that closed world to check on the actual com.fishs.users who were also at
the fair.  That is a sad commentary on Guild interests!)

 :(

squarerigger

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 05:04:46 AM »
Now c'mon Dan, let's all hear who you have in mind?

Quote
(Remembering the Guild of Knot Tyers who could staff a show'n'tell booth
at a big West Coast maritime festival but apparently couldn't make it out of
that closed world to check on the actual com.fishs.users who were also at
the fair.  That is a sad commentary on Guild interests!)

and just who do you have in mind when you say this?

Quote
rather than a meaningful measure of real rope users!

Who are your "real" rope users?   ::)

SR


Dan_Lehman

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Re: Grapple hitch
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 06:40:42 PM »
Quote
Quote
(Remembering the Guild of Knot Tyers who could staff a show'n'tell booth
at a big West Coast maritime festival but apparently couldn't make it out of
that closed world to check on the actual com.fishs.users who were also at
the fair.  That is a sad commentary on Guild interests!)

and just who do you have in mind when you say this?

Well, "where the shoe fits ...".  My open urging for the PAB folks to make contact
and begin an exchange of information with the fishermen involved in this big
annual event is here -- igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=905.0 --,
and I'd hoped to hear reports back about the various fishing activities
and associated cordage & knotting (which can be divided between knotting
done seldom/once, in advance, and that done on a recurring, per-use basis).
--such as I've been able to infrequently pursue on trips to the Right Coast.
Next chance seems to be approaching for this annual September event.
Hey, "Deadliest Catch" has garnered enough general-viewer interest to
keep it running now for what, four years?  --and to spawn off some like
show on the NE lobstering industry (which, alas, I missed).  (not w/t.v.
much; did get to see DC recently on an unfortunate stay in the hospital;
and in one show a crab-pot bridle broke at the rail--seemed it was at
the Clove H. on one side, which suggests chafe as the cause!?)

For which I confess a big (repeated, even) "touche'" on making something
shareable (articles) of my findings.  (And which I'm now realizing there is yet
a question in one case as to behavior:  what happens when a lobster pot is
hauled on board?  --the pot hauler on the one lobstering boat working out
of Cape May sits above a deep narrow opening in the deck which implies
that the longline is deposited below deck, but I don't think that the pots go
there--and that implies the snood's becket hitch & tucked end being undone
per use (and re-tied with longline brought up and set out and ... later)!

Quote
Who are your "real" rope users?   ::)

NOT the every-so-often person enquiring about this or that possible knot,
but regular users of cordage.  In volume of some measure (I forget it it was
linear feet or by weight), I recall some source claiming that "construction"
was the biggest cordage consumer.  Certainly, Com.Fish.Knotting stands
as a big "real" (tm) (!) rope use--much cordage, and in some cases as noted
above, regular hands-on involvement with it (as contrast with, say, just
bringing up netting, or adjusting sails).

But there are all sorts activities with some soft of cordage "components"
to explore.  Climbing, caving, canyoneering, and SAR for these activities
share some aspects of cordage (kernmantle); SAR more on the fire dept.
side of things seems to stand a bit further apart (and might have laid rope).

Arborists depend upon rope to ascend and tend to trees, and have need
for rope-climbing knotting as well as for heavier use in bringing chunks
of trees to ground or pulling a tree over (where there can be a danger of
a seriously loaded rope snapping!).  This is a rich activity to explore.

Utility work & underground cable setting has brought in half-inch lub'd PES
solid tape, which I see employed by various such workers as general tie-downs.

And the IGKT has at least one fellow (Mike Storch) who has a history (and
contemporary presence) with what we might think of as "cowboy"/ranch
cordage use (hard-laid lassos, leather working).

Of course there are the oodles of "sailors" whose sometimes comical masses
of cordage around dock cleats can be amusing to see, and to wonder about.
Many of these folks while clearly needing some involvement w/cordage display
little of what we'd think of as skill with it.

And ignoring the question of "rope" vs "string", anglers are chock full of knots
(in dang tiny fiddly springing stuff at times).

Maybe regarded as slightly related, at least w/cordage size, medical uses of
cordage is another application area to chart.  (I had some brief enagement
w/a doctor seeking knotting ideas--in suture, and in a thin cotton tape.)

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 06:10:27 AM by Dan_Lehman »