Author Topic: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.  (Read 21955 times)

uphoffapuppyachowski

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Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« on: June 14, 2008, 01:14:57 AM »
Trying to learn a nice double loop. Perhaps to step into & use as a chair or seat. At animated knots by grog: followed well untill last step. I can finish the knot by deviating from animation. dresses up pretty well but..?? someone please help me find instruction. http:/www.animatedknots.com/index.php catagory; sar [search and rescue.]

turks head 54

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« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 08:38:06 PM by SS369 »

uphoffapuppyachowski

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2008, 05:35:39 AM »
Reply to Turks Head..Well I guess by "nice double loop" an easy fast knot at the end of rope to secure myself when venturing onto first  ice,from shore. I picked the wrong knot. This double loop figure eight is to be tied in the middle of the line. Thinking I will just use a "bowline on bight "like I was taught in fire service. But I will have some fun checking out your suggestions. [ Retired firefighter,knotting for nostalgia.]           Thanks T-Head   

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2008, 05:22:23 PM »
Fascinating user_name, uphoffapuppyachowski;D

I'm quite puzzled at what could possibly puzzle you about Grog's presentation
of the twin-eye Fig.8 loopknot?  --because his presentation of the finishing steps
is to my eye most carefully done.  (OTOH, I much dislike his specious dressing of
the set of Fig.8 knots--such flattly adjacent parts will not endure tension!)  I.p.,
his slow-motion showing of the maneuvre I like to call "the back-flip" is great.

You follow-up by saying that the knot you desire is to be tied in the middle of the line:
what exactly are the circumstances, and i.p. how will this knot be loaded (loading profile)
--by the eyes and both ends simultaneously, or alternately?  (The knots that you and
Turkshead cite are all presented as being "TIB" ("tied in the bight" = sans ends); but none
of them works well if loaded on both ends simultaneously.)  Again, how do you see your
particular use loading this knot?

Now, there are other ways to form two eyes in a knot and meet different loading demands,
but I'm skeptical at my ability to present them verbally (esp. if you have trouble following
Grog's clear images!?).

--dl*
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uphoffapuppyachowski

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2008, 05:57:36 AM »
In reply to Dan Lehman SR Member...  The last step in Grog's presentation just doesn't grab my eye correctly.  It looked to me the last move securing knot was a loop being moved into one position and then back to the previous position, which would do nothing but leave one at the next to last move.  I've since tied the knot by using the back flip to pass to the rear or around the whole shebang, leading to a compact, eye-pleasing knot.  Speaking of the middle orTIB of line, that was not my intention.  I desire a harness type arrangement at the end of the line.  (To self-rescue from breaking through the ice, with line secured at shore.)  I would think both ends of loop would be simultaneously loaded.  I've messed around with loading characteristics and it seems one can run into problems if finished knot if severly loaded on one loop.  I think one could find good instruction by following mountaineering, technical  crevass... self rescue.  Incorporating a large jamming device (ascender) that would work in cold icy conditions. 

SS369

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 11:08:11 PM »
Hello uphoffapuppyachowski,

Take a gander at the topic here called "Unnamed double loop knot"

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=846.0)

and see if with perhaps some addition this could work for you.
The loops do not slide once set and dressed in relation to each other.
I have used it as a temporary sit harness with the addition of an upper body loop (your choice) and at that point you will have to unify the working and standing parts to the load.
Scott

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2008, 05:01:38 PM »
I desire a harness type arrangement at the end of the line.  (To self-rescue from breaking through the ice, with line secured at shore.)

Ha!  I can imagine that the knot to be tied if one met with the extremely unfortunate
condition of breaking through ice would be the fastest loopknot one knows, to serve
as a footstep to hoisting oneself out of the death trap--if one could at all function, even!
(I had the opportunity recently to see some bozo on a survivor show pretending to
be encountering the harshness of Siberia actually strip down and tie who-knows-what
(it seemed to involve a series of Overhands, to make some around-belly eye), and
actually jump INTO a frozen lake, eventually (after giving some smarmy oratory) to
swim a short distance and poke up under thinner ice, was it?  And he looked rather
casual about the whole deal, which to my mind smelled a fraud.  Water near freezing
doesn't give one that sort of countenance!  He raised himself out seemingly easily.
(And got warmed by what looked a mighty docile & small fire, conveniently nearby.)

In short, I don't fancy having to try to arrange for a harness and some rope-ascension
method in such icey conditions.

 ;)

DerekSmith

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2008, 08:12:22 PM »
Hi uphoffapuppyachowski

The move which is fooling your eye is in actual fact one of the nicest techniques a knot tyer can add to their 'bag' of skills / techniques.  It is almost the perfect way of finishing a knot that has been TIB and leaving the bight end free.

If you look (knowing in advance just what is happening), you will see what is in reality there instead of what your eye wants you to think is there.

You will see in step 5 that the bight end is free to be pulled out of the knot.  Any tension on the loops will pull the bight end right out



The jump from 5 to 6 is the bit that throws you.  The bight has been opened up and passed down behind the fig 8 knot, right past it.  Then in steps 7 and 8 the loop end is then passed back up over the face - the front - of the knot (not back up behind the knot)..  When the bight loop is behind the knot it is empty - when it has passed down , up and back over the fi8 knot, it now contains the two SP lines - you might almost describe it as the PERFECT tie-out because it cannot slip into / through the knot under load or untie through flapping.  Now, any tension on the loops and the bight end loop simply tightens around the two SP's.

By the way, you do NOT have to tie this double loop knot mid line - you can tie it as an end line double loop.  Just double over the end of the line to make a long bight, then tie the knot as per Grogs animated example and you will have a two loop (adjustable) fig 8 with one WE and one SP.  ( BTW, if my life depended on it, I might just consider tying off the end to the SP using a Strangle).

Derek

Prajna

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 01:22:07 AM »
Hello friends. This is my first post in this forum, though I have read a number of posts in other topics and scanned this one. It seems an appropriate topic to enquire into a knot I have discovered but failed to identify.  It is a very simple end loop (and can, with a little more difficulty, be tied as a mid loop).

To tie it begin by tying a figure 8. Take the running end and pass it back through the same way it came. Once passed around the standing part tuck it into the figure 8, as if you were tying a fig 8 follow-through, but don't complete the last two tucks.

I hope that is explained clearly enough. Perhaps someone might understand it and express it more clearly.

In any case, I have found this to be a very simple, strong, stable, reliable, simple to untie, pretty knot and I have not seen it described anywhere (though I must admit to never having seen a copy of ABOK).

If needed I can send some pictures demonstrating the knot and how to tie it.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 07:22:19 AM »
See "a copy of ABOK."

 ;)

DerekSmith

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 01:25:32 PM »
Hi Prajna,

Welcome to the IGKT Forum.

Ashley describes something along the lines you have, in ABoK #1043

He says of it --

"1043. A strong, secure loop that is tied with a bight and may be
put either in the end or in the bight of the rope."


I have attached his sketch below.  Is this your knot?  There is however, a tidier version where the end leaves in line with the two loop legs and I think that perhaps this is your variant.

I would strongly support Dan's suggestion to read the ABoK, but be warned, it is hugely addictive and despite the cost, you will find yourself planning to have your own copy.

Photos of your knot would certainly be appreciated.

DerekSmith
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 01:26:36 PM by DerekSmith »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 05:37:21 PM »
Ashley describes something along the lines you have, in ABoK #1043

He says of it --

"1043. A strong, secure loop that is tied with a bight and may be
put either in the end or in the bight of the rope."


I have attached his sketch below.  Is this your knot?  There is however, a tidier version where the end leaves in line with the two loop legs and I think that perhaps this is your variant.

I would strongly support Dan's suggestion to read the ABoK, but be warned, it is hugely addictive and despite the cost, you will find yourself planning to have your own copy.

Well put--re the variants (which can naturally arise from various ways of "re-weaving"
the Fig.8.  One concern about these knots is ring-loading insecurity--i.e., were the
eye to be pulled open as though the knot was a bend joining its ends.  Another concern
might be with imbalanced loading, if the end-side eye leg can somehow be loaded
in isolation or strong bias, it might pull out (it's like the Thief knot, then).

As for the cost of ABOK, Amazon now says "38 Used & new from $29.99",
and lists their own at $50.  (I've bought a book from the A. Marketplace for 1 cent
(plust $3.99 shipping)--in fine condition.)

--dl*
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Prajna

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 01:54:18 PM »
Thank you very much Dan and Derek. Derek, correct on all counts. That is precisely the knot and the variation is the one I use.  There is no name for it, only an ABOK number? Does Ashley have more to say about it? Delightful as it would be to have ABOK, I travel light and do not acquire things, even something as seemingly indispensable as ABOK.  :)

And Dan, this knot is very rewarding to explore. Logically what you say of its possible weaknesses is correct but I have been unable to demonstrate such flaws with the rope I am using (sadly I am unable to identify it for you except to say it is soft, flexible, woven and made from nylon). If you load the end-side eye leg, even when the knot is not set, it simply seems to set itself.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 02:09:24 PM by Prajna »

DerekSmith

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 04:20:42 PM »
Hi Prajna,

What do you do that requires you to travel so light?  The opposite to most knotters who now could not travel for the clutter they have amassed around themselves.

Have you heard of the pdf version of ABoK, It is quite inexpensive and you can carry it with you on a memory stick.  Of course, you would need a PC to read it with, but you seem to have access to this in order to access this Forum.

Re your knot.  There are two further variants of the knot you describe.  One where the WEnd is passed around the SPart above the knot and one where it is passed so as to be 'within' the knot as shown here.



Which is the form you are proposing and do you have any preference?

I have included the .cyp files for the two variants, you can view these using the FCB utility which can be downloaded from here http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/The+FCB+Cypher

Derek

Prajna

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Re: Canadian eight or two loops figure eight.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 04:59:58 PM »
This is the knot I tie Derek:

fbn fcf gci hce icj ddi ede fdg gdg hde idh jdm kde ldj def eei feg geg hee ieh jep kee lel cfc dfg efg ffh gfh hfe ifl dgk egg fgl ggf ehk fhe ghl

I must say, it was easier to trace the knot in FCB than I expected. :)

I didn't know that ABOK was available as a pdf.  I have always been interested in knots since I learned to tie my shoes :)  I have been sailing since childhood, have worked in theatres on scenery, have been an adventure training instructor and a Royal Engineer. I am sure I could wile away years with a copy of ABOK but I have given up all my possessions to follow a spiritual life - even this computer is borrowed. :)

Actually, I just checked how I dress it and it is a little different to that picture. I will modify the FCB model and post the proper version.

Is the arrow the standing end or running end?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 05:07:25 PM by Prajna »