Knots **In The Wild**

[Dan_Lehman]

How many of you are at least occasionally in touch with, or even able to reach
out to, some actual knot-using activities, and able to observe what is actually
put to use by some user group?

With my own limited observations --sometimes pure serendipity--, I've come across
knotted structures unlike anything I've found in literature.  "In The Wild", what
users apply will often come from their own sources of hand-me-down knowledge,
and maybe some in-use trial and error and modifcation of common knots into the
particular (even peculiar) things that they tie.  Sometimes the result is rather awkward,
sometimes ingenious; one must presume that it usually suffices (though might not be
beyond improvement).

My current keen interest is in the ropework of commercial fishers ("ComFishKnots"),
to be distinguished from the fiddly fine stuff of anglers, btw.  Here I find Half-hitched
structures all over --Clove & Reverse Groundline hitches, seizings that are built up of
Half-hitches, other seizing hitches that employ Half-hitches.  And I just realized
that the knot shown in kN62:07a (top) (Knot News--IGKT-PAB) as a (false!) "Samisen"
structure loopknot was one I saw, more or less, in a conch pot bridle in Port Norris,
(south) New Jersey USA (near Bivalve, just downstream from Bridgeton, a port where
Ashley "found" his famous "Oysterman's Stopper") !  In the 3-leg bridle to the round
plastic-drum-slice pot, one piece of rope makes the 1-2 legs and a longer rope comes
into this in the form of ABOK #1462 "Heaving-line Bend" (ha!) and its end goes
out as the 3rd leg, stoppered into the pot side.  (So, all ends are loaded, variously.)
In this token-knot, the materials were of similar nature; my notes weakly recall that
the 3rd-leg & then snood line might've been a little thicker than the 1-2-legs piece,
but hardly the thin-2-thick hitching presented by Ohrvall/Svensson/Ashley/et-al..

And I've also found some unusual knots used by rockclimbers at a nearby cliff,
such as a pseudo-Grapevine bend where the Dbl.Overhand components were
oriented & loaded as Reverse Anchor Bend/Hitches (presumably for easier loosening).

So, collectively, what is our reach in viewing the in-use knotting world?
How many of you sometimes can stroll a beach and see or even collect washed-up
flotsam-jetsam cordage clumps?  Aside from providing some spare utility or "play"
ropes, these can provide knot-knowledge insights.   Knots In The Wild!

--dl*
====

ps:  Welcome to Practical Knots!!!

[DerekSmith]

So, collectively, what is our reach in viewing the in-use knotting world?
How many of you sometimes can stroll a beach and see or even collect washed-up
flotsam-jetsam cordage clumps?  Aside from providing some spare utility or "play"
ropes, these can provide knot-knowledge insights.   Knots In The Wild!

--dl*
====

ps:  Welcome to Practical Knots!!!

What a fantastic inaugural piece for our new board, and who better to write it.

Thank you Dan for the perfect launch.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i pass up know working knots that come my way.  Tents at carnivals, farm workers, some rock climbing etc.  All ways trying to distill out the common elemeants to find the building blocks/modules that can be assembled in different fashions.  But, mostly; mine is from tree werk, climbing, tie downs etc.; including own experimeants of all etc.

Not all of us live near ancient fishing and shipwreck grounds!

[Dan_Lehman]

Not all of us live near ancient fishing and shipwreck grounds!

No, not I, even.  But some do travel (say, vacation), and beyond examining
the bindings (or what's bound between) of bikinis, there is opportunity for
noticing numerous nautical knotted niceties!
En gard!

 

Now, things have gotten mighty quiet on this knotting forum on such an invitation.
--not encouraging.

 

[dfred]

Great idea for a thread, but we need more pictures!  I was on the Alameda/Oakland<>San Francisco Ferry last year and saw some fairly lame knots used to secure a gate in the upper deck railing.  I took a few pics with a friend's camera, but never got copies.  I'll see if I can get them.

I've been watching the Discovery Channel's show "Deadliest Catch" and find myself spending lots of time trying to figure-out what knots are being used.  It appears the method for making the bridles for the crab pots varies from boat to boat.   It seems most all use a clove-hitch within each of loop of the bridle to stabilize it, but the method of forming the loop seems to vary.  Some appear to be splices (or very compact knots) covered by chafing gear, others are more bulky and look somewhat like single or double fisherman's loops but they could just be highly compacted bowline variants or something else.  I wish I had HD and some sort of Tivo-like device, as nothing stays still on these boats for very long, but I don't watch enough TV to make that worthwhile.   

[Dan_Lehman]

I've been watching the Discovery Channel's show "Deadliest Catch" and find myself spending lots of time trying to figure-out what knots are being used.  It appears the method for making the bridles for the crab pots varies from boat to boat.   It seems most all use a clove-hitch within each of loop of the bridle to stabilize it, but the method of forming the loop seems to vary.  Some appear to be splices (or very compact knots) covered by chafing gear, others are more bulky and look somewhat like single or double fisherman's loops but they could just be highly compacted bowline variants or something else.

Ditto (offset by some years--was ca. 2005, IIRC, that I'd access to cable & watched...).
The expected knot for a 2-leg pot bridle is the Overhand LK--simple, well known.
(I can't imagine a Bwl there.)  And for securing the legs to the pot sides, a Clove H.
with end secured somehow--often tucked into the lay, w/ or w/o a HHitch first.

But IIRC, I too was curious about some bridle center LK, and tried to get a response
from the Nowegian-captained crew about it, who I guess where whose boat had
featured it.

A rockclimber once crabber informed me of the favor of the Carrick Bend in the
stiff, hard-laid potwarp; and that I could see being tied one time by two guys
(one forming a crossing knot in one line while the other completed the Carrick
Bend with the opposite rope's Crossing knot).

Am I correct that the more recent Deadliest Catch series is new material?
(The original came at I think the end of the system in which boats were competing
for an imposed overall quota, and this was considered to induce dangerous
practices, so it was dropped for another system.)

They also did a series (go with a winner!) on lobster fishing of the east coast,
which reportedly touched upon the criminal (-like) competitive bad tricks done
in the course of this.  As previously noted, I've had some opportunities to get up
close & personal with some lobster fishermen.

(And there is an arboknot lurking on this site from time to time ... )

 

[Nadiral]

I'm a biologist, and my trade is the growth of edible mushrooms.  These are some knots we use at the farm:

1. A sling configured as an auto-equalizable loop, for manipulating the polyethylene cylinders filled with straw, wich are used as a substrate, when sowing the seed --i. e. scattering it.

2. A constrictor knot to close said cylinders.

3. A mooring hitch to hang them.  We periodically adjust it so that our "fake logs" remain straight and about 70% of the load is supported by the floor.

4. A trucker's hitch for taking the harvest to the market.

5. Recently, Peter Suber's sliding chinese crown (in the past, our knots of choice where the adjustable hitch, the tarbuck hitch or a simple tautline) and a prusik for to set up tarps for protecting the bales of straw.

Others:

The mexican nail; not a knot strictu senso, but used quite frecuently.  Consists of a piece of wire twisted over itself, kind of half a catpaw.

Since pre-hispanic times, the indigenous people of Mexico have used the mecapal --kind of an extended bandana of weaved sisal-- for carrying loads as a backpack.  We move, mostly, packed wheat or millet, but also bulding materials an shredded wood.  Sometimes we substitute this device with a sheepshank.

[PwH]

Great Thread Dan, just found it today and have to say it addresses my main interest in knotting, which is practical ropework where rope (and knots) are used to achieve some end unatainable by the Unaided Naked Ape.

I work in Electricity Supply, 20 yrs a cable jointer and the last 8 a fault technician on underground and overhead networks up to 33kv. Much use of knots and ropework as in many industries has been supplanted by manufactured devices and gizmos, a trend I deplore as "de-skilling" the trade to the extent almost any monkey on the street can make a reasonable fist of it with a few weeks training.

Knots in past or current use to my knowledge include:
Timber hitch with or without one or several Half Hitches (dragging poles and pulling in cables),
Half Hitches stopped and faired with Insulating tape (pulling in cables),
Rolling Hitch ( my personal favourite for cable pulling as you can pull then slide to take another bight in constricted spaces, a totally magic knot that always impresses the onlooker!)
Bowline (lowering casualty in Pole Top Rescue and any place you need a rope eye),
Bale Sling Hitch (lifting oil drums), Ring Hitch ( in a sling at pole top to attach Yale and Klein for tensioning conductors), Cow Hitch (in a Linesmans Sash line to raise tools and materials to pole top). These last 3 the same knot formation with different applications.
Eye Splice, Short Splice, Back Splice (in the days when people took pride in their ropes),
Contractors Splice in Laid and/or Braided line- Eye and Straight,(Pulling in Cables),
Prussic Knot (Tree Climbing), (and the occasional unofficial street lamp ascent),
Lots O' Insulating Tape for Stoppings, Bindings and Whippings,
Truckers Hitch, RT&2HH, and Clove Hitch, (Lashing loads and pulling leaning poles into plumb)
Various Tackles, Blocks, Shackles, wire and chain pulls, Drum & Capstan Winches etc

And that's not to mention all the Guys Who Just Can't Tie Knots and use any number of Granny's, Tangle Hitches, and Bastard Loops to get the job done, then cut them off and start again- it make me old heart bleed to see 'em!

That's all I can think of for now, I might add some more as I remember them- it's been nearly thirty years y'know!!

Cheers, PwH

also constrictor knot and /or common whipping for terminating belting papers and core insulation papers when jointing 11 and 33 kv cables.

[dfred]

During a recent trip to Europe one of my sub-projects was to collect some pictures of knots "in the wild" for this thread.  The trip primarily saw me in Amsterdam and Prague, which is where all of the following pictures were taken.  The canals of Amsterdam, and more specifically the boats moored in them, provided many chances to observe knots in the wild.  Mostly it was standard bowlines, eye splices, random agglomerations of turns and tucks -- the standard stuff one sees anywhere.  I did note that only one of the many bowlines I saw in NL was of the so-called Dutch variety.    Here is a brief tour of the more notable knots I observed, with captions below each image.


Of all the knots I saw on the canals of AMS this was the most notable: a Lobster Buoy Hitch (#1839).  Given the otherwise non-notable state of knots on this boat, I was left wondering if this was an intentional use of the LBH, or simply a statistical fluke where a random attempt at a two-half-hitches class knot ended up as a LBH.  Hard to say, but still a LBH observed in the wild...



This image was taken at the Amsterdam Jewish Historical Museum.  It is a glass mezuzah, a Jewish door post marker used to fulfill a mitzvah, or biblical commandment.  It is rendered in glass tube with an overhand knot in each end, inside is a parchment scroll inscribed with bible verses.  It's unclear how the glass would be worked with the paper inside, so there may be a trick like breaking the tube inside the knot, inserting the scroll, and then re-gluing.  But still an interesting place to find knots, and in an interesting knotting media.  (Lighting was very difficult and taken through a glass case, so not the best image.)



While I saw many less-than-stellar examples of knotting, most seemed up to the task at hand, if only by virtue of the number of wraps and tucks.  However this knot seen in Prague's Old Town wins for the worst knot I saw on my trip.  It appeared this hook was actually used for hoisting stuff to the top of a 6-7 story scaffolding.  I seriously thought about retying it with something more reasonable, but figured it was best to avoid the possibility of some Czech construction worker coming over and roughing me up for messing with his equipment.



This image and the next two were taken at the Prague Castle complex, within the "Powder Tower" where an exhibit of "Military headgear through the ages" was taking place.  The English caption for this hat read, "Home guard shako model 1826, Bavaria." 



Detail of the fancy knotted terminals to the main chain sinnet on the above hat.



English caption: "Hussar officers' shako model 1850, Austria"



And finally, one knot of my own making...  I carry a roll-up toiletries kit which when unrolled hangs very nicely from horizontal towel bars.  However since many hotels, homes, etc. don't have a horizontal bar in a reasonable location I carry a short length of braided cord (lawnmower starter-cord for the curious) which I used to hang the kit from whatever is available.  In the apartment in Prague, there was a serious dearth of options, other than this smooth downward pointing window lever.   I always seem to forget exactly how to tie an icicle hitch when I'm in the field, but I remembered seeing something like this on this forum (and in ABOK, #1755) and tried recreating it.  I didn't remember how it was finished, so I tried a couple things.  I found this ground-line hitch-esque finish to be both elegant and highly effective.  Once properly tensioned and adjusted this was absolutely bomb-proof when kept under tension.  If anybody can provide a pointer to that thread where this sort of knot was previously discussed, it would be appreciated.   [EDIT: Found the thread - A knot by Design]

[Dan_Lehman]

During a recent trip to Europe one of my sub-projects was to collect some pictures of knots "in the wild" for this thread.
The trip primarily saw me in Amsterdam and Prague, which is where all of the following pictures were taken.

Bravo, DFred!!

The canals of Amsterdam, and more specifically the boats moored in them, provided many chances to observe knots in the wild.
Mostly it was standard bowlines, eye splices, random agglomerations of turns and tucks -- the standard stuff one sees anywhere.

Although, if more attentive observation and analysis of such knotted structures is made,
it might become understood that there is more of a (natural?) pattern to such workings
than might be superficially presumed.
E.g., I'll have a point re this on the loosely formed hitch below.

I did note that only one of the many bowlines I saw in NL was of the so-called Dutch variety. 

Which says MUCH about the knotting LITERATURE & hearsay, and much less about de knoop Nederland--NB!

Of all the knots I saw on the canals of AMS this was the most notable: a Lobster Buoy Hitch (#1839). 

Are you sure of this--i.e., did you examine it more closely than from the photo's perspective,
to ascertain w/certainty the path of the parts?
For I don't see #1839 here:  I see the SPart (or hoofdtouw) making a HHitch turn around a line, as, indeed,
like the start of 2HHs--same orientation to object, i.p.--, and that denies it being a Lobster Buoy Hitch.  In fact,
it is what I've called (on my own discovery--"invention"--of it) a "Collared Half-Hitch" noose, albeit not in the exact
geometry that would readily reveal the motivation for this name, where the hitch is slide up snug to a hitched ring.
The end is jammed up into the intial HH turn.

But, admittedly, the path of the two ends (SPart & loose/cut end) is ambiguous; the eye can follow either
to either turn of the knot.  BUT, there are reasons to believe my assertion--see below.

Given the otherwise non-notable state of knots on this boat,

Oh, but re another hitch you've captured nicely to share w/us might tell directly upon this question!

I was left wondering if this was an intentional use of the LBH, or simply a statistical fluke where a random attempt
at a two-half-hitches class knot ended up as a LBH.  Hard to say, but still a LBH observed in the wild...

--and not knot-imaginations of an author!  --parrotings from past parrotings from ...

Scrutinize that old, growth-decorated (enhanced/camouflaged) rope; see the portion just beyond
the hitch--there is a distinct slight dog-led bend in it, starting w/the 3rd strand on upper side & thereabouts.
This, I submit, indicates a preliminary state to achieving the knotted structure that resulted.
.:.  If one were to (re- (!!))capsize this hitch by pulling on the end etc., it will take the form of a ...
SquaREef knot (forming the eye).  And that, I submit, is the genesis of what you saw.
For that is a traditional or natural tying method (or, in Pieter van de Griend terminology, algorithm);
and what the same sort of tying & capsizing would take to get #1839 is anything but natural
(just as tying a Thief is more trouble than tying the Reef).  And see below, as forewarned ...

(Incidentally, CLDay's Art of Knotting & Splicing has a different orienation of the so-called
Lobster Buoy hitch than Ashley; and Day's version could be differently dressed, to boot.
Day's image matches what THIS image would be showing were my arguments above wrong
(but I think not)--in any case, a Cow Hitch in reverse orientation to noosed object, the end lying
parallel to SPart, rather than taking a pass on one or the other side of the SPart.  Ashley, in
contrast, definitely positions the end tp run out between SPart and over part, whereas it could
also go on the other side, between SPart of noose & SPart of noose's hitch--the former
seems maybe less secure.)

While I saw many less-than-stellar examples of knotting, most seemed up to the task at hand, if only by virtue of the number of wraps and tucks.  However this knot seen in Prague's Old Town wins for the worst knot I saw on my trip.  It appeared this hook was actually used for hoisting stuff to the top of a 6-7 story scaffolding.  I seriously thought about retying it with something more reasonable, but figured it was best to avoid the possibility of some Czech construction worker coming over and roughing me up for messing with his equipment.

Well, here is clear evidence of the natural way of casting multiple "overhand"/simple knots
to form a hitch.  If the force were adequate to capsize these multiple knots, you'd find here
possibly THREE HHitches--nb: the Simple knots combine in the Granny orientation to each other.
In fact, such multiplicities often capsize into rather surprising loopknots, with the SPart staying
turned and the end jerking straight, at the eye/object-end of the structure.  One can find various
results, and variously of the "Cow (Reef)" vs "Clove (Granny)" orientations.

This image and the next two were taken at the Prague Castle complex, within the "Powder Tower" where an exhibit of "Military headgear through the ages" was taking place.  . . .

And HERE, we must invalidate your passport into the Practical section!   

And finally, one knot of my own making...  I carry a roll-up toiletries kit which when unrolled hangs very nicely from horizontal towel bars.  However since many hotels, homes, etc. don't have a horizontal bar in a reasonable location I carry a short length of braided cord (lawnmower starter-cord for the curious) which I used to hang the kit from whatever is available.

A knotter must carry cord--passport to persistent pleasures!

--dl*
====

[Mrs Glenys Chew]

Thanks for sharing those pictures with us, DFred.  I really enjoyed them.

Regards

Glenys

[DerekSmith]

Hi DFred,

Great post, thank you for bringing us these images.

Naturally, I was particularly impressed with your use of the KC Hitch (from A Knot by Design) - an aesthetically fine rendition although I have to admit that today I use the Dog 'n Tails method of tying it - middle the cord and tie an OH loop then garter the two cords up the fixed object and finish with a 'shoelace' knot for easy release, then hang the load in the OH loop.

Re the Lobster Pot - I have to stand with Dan on this one and put one more small indicator into the discussion to support the position.



Look carefully at the twist state of the rope.  The 'dog legged' portion is tightly twisted while the wrap near the dog leg has slightly opened under a reversal of the twist.  If you tie a square knot (left handed), then capsize it, you will see that as the collar rolls over it takes on the negative twist necessary to make this geometrical change exactly as seen in this perfect shot.

Keep them coming.
Derek

[DerekSmith]

This dashing young man is dressed with the finest round turn finished with a Reef knot.

I found him on the Kerry Greyhound Connection website http://anton.immink.co.uk/kgc/availablehounds.html- his name is William (Will) and apparently he is looking for a home.

[dfred]

Regarding the LBH vs. capsized reef knot, I was reasonably confident of my identification when actually looking at it, but both your arguments are quite convincing regarding a much more likely mode of formation.   I was not able to examine the back side of the knot, as that would have required boarding, which I didn't feel was appropriate, though I did consider it.    My assumption of intent on the knotter's part was probably unwarranted.  Interesting how the "natural" way of making knots, as you both allude to, needs to be unlearned (or at least controlled) in becoming truly proficient with them.   And not surprisingly, yet again, a 2D representation of a knot turns out to be ambiguous...   I wouldn't be at all surprised if this knot were still there; it's somewhere on a boat towards the northern end of one of the canals of the Western Canal Belt, north of Westermarkt.  (only 1/2 )

.:.  If one were to (re- (!!))capsize this hitch by pulling on the end etc., it will take the form of a ...
SquaREef knot (forming the eye).  And that, I submit, is the genesis of what you saw.
For that is a traditional or natural tying method (or, in Pieter van de Griend terminology, algorithm);
and what the same sort of tying & capsizing would take to get #1839 is anything but natural
(just as tying a Thief is more trouble than tying the Reef).  And see below, as forewarned ...

Dan, I don't know whether you intended to specifically imply it, but it is interesting to note that a LBH is actually a capsized Thief's Knot loop, something I'd not noted before.  I did realize that the LBH doesn't "self dress" nearly as consistently as the buntline hitch, perhaps this is due to its opposing turns and comparatively unbalanced nature??   The BLH seems almost magical in this regard when drawn up, though it obviously can be forced to take on some odd shapes (e.g. four-in-hand style with the SPart and free end parallel).  And incidentally I never realized it, but the initials LBH and BLH themselves have a certain congruence with the knots they represent...

I did note that only one of the many bowlines I saw in NL was of the so-called Dutch variety.  Smiley

Which says MUCH about the knotting LITERATURE & hearsay, and much less about de knoop Nederland--NB!

I've just posted most of the other knot pics from AMS in this gallery:  http://www.dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080613/

What I believed to be a "Dutch" bowline is in this image, the full size version is a bit blurry but hopefully it won't lead to ambiguity.  There are several normal "inside" bowlines in the other gallery images, among other things.   Feel free to hotlink any of these pics to the forum.  Though I highly recommend using the intermediate size ".slide..." images, as the full-size originals are far to big for inline inclusion.

[...regarding fancy Bavarian hat knots...]
And HERE, we must invalidate your passport into the Practical section!  Grin  Grin

Heh heh, yes, definitely not practical...  I tried to sneak them in to avoid starting another thread.  Mainly I included them because they were well-dated, first-hand examples of knotting -- but point taken. 

[...regarding Czech "hoisting hitches"...]
Well, here is clear evidence of the natural way of casting multiple "overhand"/simple knots
to form a hitch.  If the force were adequate to capsize these multiple knots, you'd find here
possibly THREE HHitches--nb: the Simple knots combine in the Granny orientation to each other.
In fact, such multiplicities often capsize into rather surprising loopknots, with the SPart staying
turned and the end jerking straight, at the eye/object-end of the structure.  One can find various
results, and variously of the "Cow (Reef)" vs "Clove (Granny)" orientations.

Well as a practical matter, three half-hitches properly dressed up against the hook would be a much more suitable knot for this application.  But if you want to go all abstract and topological on us, feel free to flout the charter of this forum!!   

(But of course I'm joking, as these observation definitely bear directly on how practical knots are actually made and used in the wild.)

Naturally, I was particularly impressed with your use of the KC Hitch (from A Knot by Design) - an aesthetically fine rendition although I have to admit that today I use the Dog 'n Tails method of tying it - middle the cord and tie an OH loop then garter the two cords up the fixed object and finish with a 'shoelace' knot for easy release, then hang the load in the OH loop.

Thanks.  And, yea, the finish isn't really part of the active portion of the knot.  Probably best to consider it left up to tyer to decide, based on the particular case at hand...

[Dan_Lehman]

Nice other photos, too!

I'd say that the presumed "Dutch Marine Bwl" is ambgiuous; that orientation
could result from the strong draw of the SPart moving the end to the apparent
"left-handed" side ("apparent").  And my conjecture is that tying methods are more
dependable, and such movement frequently observed enough, to lean in favor of that.

As for the "Preferential UV line damage?", at first (seeing the most distant image)
I thought that no, it was a type of polyDac line in which there are alternating yarns
of white PES & black PP (which there are!); the close-ups, however, dispell this
conclusion, and indeed it seems to show that the black pigmentation does much
better at UV resistance (very much better).  I have some such stuff staying out in
daily sun for years w/o the sort of embrittling-&-splitting/fraying that seemed typical
of aged PP!  Though by the look of the fibres, they're not so round as flattened, oval,
it seems.  Could they even be of a CoEx material (PE/PP coextruded)?  --seems that
PP is coming out in various forms, and I think more or less touched with some PE help.
("It's not your father's polypropylene.")((though I've some ca. 1960s stuff that shows
no sign of aging, really!?!!)

--dl*
====