Author Topic: Knots **In The Wild**  (Read 92135 times)

Andy

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2010, 08:07:35 AM »

Happy new year everyone!

Greetings from Nelson, NZ.

A picture from a knot on a chopper that landed near us:


Sadly, the only picture, with no more detail. But it was fun to look at, I had not imagined to put knots together with aviation.

Warmest wishes,

Andy


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DerekSmith

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2010, 02:52:36 PM »
Hi Andy,

Welcome back, I hope you had (are having) a great time.

Re the knot - what on earth is it?

I think I saw a shape something like that once on a rescue tutorial to allow the controlled release of a load.  Would that have been the case with this knot?

Derek

sharky

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2010, 04:11:20 PM »
Cool thread...as owner and operator of a commercial fishing operation in Japan, I should be able to get some unique pics for this topic. Just came in today, but I will try to get some pics at the port during this week. I think you will find that commercial fishermen in Asia tie knots much the same as commercial fishermen in other parts of the world.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 04:12:35 PM by sharky »
Sharky

Andy

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2010, 11:41:49 PM »

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your friendly greeting!

Quote
Re the knot - what on earth is it?
I think I saw a shape something like that once on a rescue tutorial to allow the controlled release of a load.  Would that have been the case with this knot?

The pilot was busy showing kids around the helicopter, so I didn't have a chance to ask. The part of the rope at the top right is attached to one of the rotor blades. I assumed that was to keep the blades from moving in the wind. On the left, you can see a weight pulling on one end of the rope, perhaps to prevent the knot from working itself loose. As for the knot itself, I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of many members on the forum. You probably would have been able to identify it. You can see many turns as in a stevedore, but around the metal bar. That was a couple months ago, thought I'd taken close-ups, but cannot find them. Will have to wait for the next chopper!

Wishing you a wonderful week,

Warmest regards,

Andy
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PwH

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2010, 01:20:14 AM »
Hi Andy,

Thanks for this interesting shot. Looks like a reverse multiple rolling hitch with a final crossback and half hitch in a bight to me.  

The red weight bag serves as a throwing aid to capture the rotor blade and a " Take Me Off Before You Fly" tag.
All aircraft have several of these that the careful pilot removes before take off. S/he knows how many the bird has and if s/he can't count that number in hand s/he knows there's one still attached somewhere that could bring a premature end to the flight profile.

Having caught the blade and clipped on the rope end, haul the blade round to the tail and pass the doubled rope under the tail skid in a sunwise direction forming a very obtuse round turn. Form several (looks like between 8 & 12) round turns serving back over the the original RT with the doubled rope. Upon reaching the incoming line pass once around the skid inboard of the line and bring back outboard of the serving forming a HH. The remaining bight falls at the left of the knot as viewed and the TMOBYF tag falls to the right.

That's what it looks like to me at least. What do you think?

Regards, Peter H        
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 07:34:54 AM by PwH »
Is a Round Turn just a Grossly Overfed Seabird?

DerekSmith

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2010, 12:23:28 PM »
I see your logic Peter, but I would question that first obtuse turn.

The cord seems to be about half the diameter of the tail skid, so we should see some witness of that long turn beneath the serving, yet I cannot see any - it seems to conform nicely to the shape of the skid bar.

There seems to be some sort of white boss on the skid where the aerial? is attached.  Perhaps the doubled cord starts its multi wraps there and wraps out towards the end, then after 8 wraps, is brought back on the away side of the skid, passes around the blade line, back along the near side to the end of the wraps and HH to finish.  There is a slight indication that the red tagged end hangs from the far side of the skid which it would do if it were not served into place.

The only question I would have is -'why make such a complex hitch?'

Derek

PwH

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2010, 01:32:18 PM »
Derek,

 I think you've nailed it. I did wonder if the rope returned as you suggest, and I guess my description was influenced by how I would tie this particular configuration. I didn't like the idea of such a loose return and would prefer to see it served down. On the other hand I would have tied a clove hitch and HH in the bight then coiled the rest and clove hitched that to the skid.

 I suspect the only reason for this extended knot is to use up the spare rope. These catching ropes have to be quite long as the rotor tends to sit forward and the rear blade is pretty high off the deck. They tie them down to stop rocking and milling  in the wind which can damage the mechanism or adjacent machines and the blade tip.

Regards, Peter H
Is a Round Turn just a Grossly Overfed Seabird?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2010, 01:12:48 AM »
If I read Derek correctly, I concur in his surmise but for the
exaggerated count of wraps -- realize that it is twin strands
making the rounds, here:  they build material double-fast!
.:.  So, the line is doubled, brought beneath and around the
object and wrapped away from the direction of load, until
in a few wraps it returns to pass back up around the object
and past the loaded part to reach to the end of the wraps
for, I think, a double-turn finish.  (And thanks for the attempt
to enhance the photo by enlargement -- eh, not quite sufficient.)

"... so complex ..." :  I don't find it complex, and not all that
drawn out; it consumes material, effects the making-fast,
and it simply done, simply undone.  It works.  (Like some of
the cod-end knots, much is done to consume the length.)

--dl*
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alpineer

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2010, 06:56:50 AM »
You guys are goood! :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:03:40 AM by alpineer »

DerekSmith

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2010, 07:36:11 AM »
I have made this fixing the way we have surmise.  I estimate from the photo that there are ca 6 wraps of the doubled cord before going back to the load line and then back again to the final wrap/simple hitch.

With a loading at roughly 30degreed to the 'skid' the fixing was stable against shock load due to the large number of turns bleeding the load frictionally into the skid.

I think you have it though Dan in your comment on simplicity of removal.  The loading does not reach the simple hitch and the fixing is as easy to remove as it is to put on.  I would guess that even in cold and bad weather, it would still be just as easy to remove - even with gloves or cold hands.

Whoever designed it was good

Andy

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2010, 09:21:15 AM »
Greetings you all,

You guys are AMAZING.
Sorry for not providing a better picture at the start, I'd forgotten about the zoom function. Here are close-ups of some details.

   

   


Wishing you's a magnificent day!
Smiles,

Andy

p.s. Did I mention that you all are amazing?
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DerekSmith

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2010, 02:53:35 PM »
Nice find Andy,

It all seems to fit the surmises.  That rope seems well used - worn flat and fluffy.

The only strange aspect is that odd looking hook attaching to the blade tip.  Everything seems so purpose made (even the hitch), so why the oddball hook?  It is almost as if the hook were designed to be used for flat strapping ?

Derek

sharky

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2010, 03:32:40 PM »
Just a guess, but I would say that the hook on the blade tip is a multipurpose tool. As you can see, the eye splice is large enough for the hook to be removed if they need to use it for something else. Aircraft as well as ships try to maximize on the gear they have to carry.
Sharky

alpineer

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2010, 04:26:39 PM »
Just a guess, but I would say that the hook on the blade tip is a multipurpose tool. As you can see, the eye splice is large enough for the hook to be removed if they need to use it for something else. Aircraft as well as ships try to maximize on the gear they have to carry.

Yes, it has a convenient grab handle for whatever other tooling purposes it might have.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2010, 04:35:20 AM »
WEll, the enlarged photo shows the surmises to be wrong :
the bight legs go opposite directions around the skid!


I think that the red-tagged hanging end clearly passes up BEFORE
the skid, over its top, then out of sight behind (maybe to u-turn,
but clear enough IN FRONT at first contact and not paired with
the other leg in passing around under & behind).  That busts
the conjecture about the tying, and poses questions about how
and how efficiently this actual structure is made!?  => Square-1

And at least I was wrong about the finish entailing a round turn:
it is a simple turn/half-hitch.  I thus count 8 twin wraps working
back from this point, and at the right end where they reach the
two legs, one must wonder how they go to flow into their respective
*ends*.

FURTHERmore:  I find it odd (and had so thought previously, silently)
that the wrapping of a bight-end (long) did not produce more torsion
-- rather, this bight end hangs at not such short length with only the
slightest suggestion of torsion; there are but a few crossings otherwise.
And this seems to be hard-laid rope, too.

I count back from the left end wraps (ignoring the bight's HH finish)
SIX turns around the skid, and the sixth (rotating frontwards->upwards->over...)
seems to there split over/under (resp.) the red-tagged end!?
And re the red-tagged end's passing UNDER just one of the wrapped
strand-pair, I see on the left/top side of this crossing apparently a
quite torqued open (against lay) pair of rope-strands,
as though this end had been brought under the other part with
much pressure upon it!?  -- curiouser & curiouser!!

Also, look at the red-tagged end immediately below the tail-bight
it passes behind:  there seems to be a slight bulge of material there
that I can't make be part of the bight or the end, nor could it do
much pressing on the end for that would deflect the end's line
of passage more this is done -- which is very slight at most!?

So, I'm lost on this.
???

I will continue to assume that whatever tying it is, it is done easily.
But I can't conceive of such a tying to match what I see here.

--dl*
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