Author Topic: Knots **In The Wild**  (Read 92046 times)

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2009, 11:58:04 AM »
And I am puzzled and begin to think that knotting is not so bad after all around here. People use decent splices (although the lines are mostly bought spliced then), and there are well made bowlines and two half hitches and clove hitches and such. I very seldom get the opportunity to see a tangle like the ones that Dan seems to find almost everywhere. I am led to believe that education on knots for sailors in fact has done something in my whereabouts. I too have taken pics of knots in the wild, but I fail to come across any real uglies.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2009, 08:00:10 PM »
Quote
... that Dan seems to find everywhere ...

One should beware that there might be a "squeaky wheel" syndrome:
that only the bad ones are captured for presentation.  But, no, in the
cleat hitches I was pretty fair -- there was just that main one, maybe
another, fairly approximating *correctness*.

But re the "everywhere", it was interesting (and LIMITED scope, so far):
where some expensive yachts were moored, lines were "properly" cleated;
yet in some other marinas, with small craft, I found "spaghetti" securings.
Now, for the former, it could be that staff at the site were responsible
for some things (so, if they were savvy then all who were there got the
proper cleating?).

I'd hoped to get a look at a marina en route out of The Wildwoods but it
was tooooo good for the common man -- a gated community of boats!
There might yet be hope, and further looking.  Then, again, the heavy
mooring lines of the commercial-fishing trawlers do have a most interesting
variety of often capsized knots (bowlines, Eskimo bowlines, anti-bowlines),
such that I wonder if capsizing is desired -- still doubt it, but ... .
Indeed, come to think of it, at one dock there were many of those
"left-handed" ("Cowboy" ...) bowlines, and I think that their purpose
is expressly to better resist capsizing -- my surmise (and of boats that
might have a common owner, or information-exchanging captains/crew).

Quote
... there are well made bowlines ...

And, tell me, what is the geometry of these bowlines?  Joop make some remark
echoing the claim that the common bowlines having the end inside of the
eye can lead to it being pushed out of the knot!?  I find this incredible,
and must remark that in about all cases of having-been-loaded bowlines
that I've seen, the end is pulled up and away from the eye by the draw
of the S.Part -- it remains nowhere near the eye to be pushed!

Attached first is the Common Bowline showing an extreme draw of
its end away from the eye; then comes the "Left-handed" bowline
with visible effect of the S.Part draw on the outside-positioned eye
such that it makes a broad "V"; this knot is resistant to capsizing.


--dl*
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[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2009, 08:43:06 PM »
The cowboy bowline is seldom seen here, it is frowned at as "not correct". Bowlines almost invariably are tied with the end inside, and I cannot see any way that the end might be pushed out of the knot. Never heard of here.

To avoid chafe, there is often an extra turn before the bowline is formed, and for larger craft the bowline is mostly toggled to a ring. Also spliced eyes are mostly toggled. I'll be back with some pictures.

Marinas are almost always gated here, but I have access to a few.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 05:50:43 PM by Inkanyezi »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2009, 08:06:06 PM »
The cowboy bowline is seldom seen here, it is frowned at as "not correct".

And so I must wonder at the cordage, the circumstances, and the frequency
of capsized bowlines, which the "not correct" version well resists!?
That cannot be a matter up to human opinion -- it is one of materials & structure
under natural forces.  And, again, I have found (and shown here) capsized bowlines
to the extent that I wonder almost whether they're deliberately done (tied loose in
hopes of upsetting) -- it would be more tricky to tie such a Pile-Hitch noose
directly.  And I envision one mechanism for so forming ...

Quote
To avoid chafe, there is often an extra turn before the bowline is formed,

By which I take you mean a turn on the pile.**  Hmmm, if the boat's movement
in the water is such as to produce slightly different angles of tension upon the
line, conceivably the legs of the bowline can be loaded in isolation, or initially
so -- that turn on the frictive pile serving to require some good force to work
around into the initially slackened eye leg.  And in that moment, of the load
is on the end-side eye leg, with the common bowline it can help effect the
capsizing.
**[Well, reflecting, you likely mean turn on a ring, for which this paragraph
    doesn't have much traction.]

Quote
toggled to a ring. Also spliced eyes are mostly toggled. I'll be back with some pictures.

Great!  This forum is getting enriched by the hour, from all over!

 :)


skyout

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2009, 12:28:31 AM »
I found this pic on the 1st page when doing an AOL image search for "fancy knots".
I didn't see any description for it but thought of this thread when I saw it because it looks interesting and old.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 12:30:31 AM by skyout »

SS369

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2009, 03:11:04 AM »
Knots in the wilds of my backyard.

Having to draw together some framing lumber that was too long for any clamps I have (16ft+) I used a figure 9 loop and threaded the rope (soft-laid nylon and well used) through it after going around the  framing member, then on to the opposite member and around. Then threading through the loop of a butterfly tied part way back again, I gained enough clamping power enough to draw the members tight. Finalized with a  half hitch and then a slipped overhand thus allowing freedom to nail these ornery boards
Choice for these knots was based on past experience of ease to untie after loading.


Scott

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2009, 09:16:30 AM »
I promised to be back with pictures, and here are the first four. These are typical for mooring medium size vessels, retired fishing boats mostly. The bowline is common, as well as two half hitches, and I see a fisherman's now and then. Often the rope displays severe chafe, these boats are moored for extended time, some for years on end. All are owned by people that use them as a home or like a summer house that can take them out to the archipelago. Mooring practise seems very reasonable to me.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2009, 07:59:24 PM »
Ah, good to see that sometimes-published knotted structure actually in use.

BUT, it seems to me that it would be surer and more convenient/considerate
of other mooring lines to same ring to use a short rope vice board/cylinder
to bind the false Girth Hitch.  One would use this rope to bind together
(with simple wraps, maybe some HH-locking 2 B Sure) the two sided of
the part of the eye that go out around the eye legs.

--dl*
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PwH

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2009, 03:33:55 PM »
Hi All,

These knots are not strictly 'In the Wild' in these photo's, (they are on my lounge carpet) but they do accompany me to the wildness whenever I go diving. I am inordinately proud of them, especially the mini TH's!

See them here http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/peterwhennessey/MyHandmadeBungeeCordFinStrapsStringRopeKnots#

Enjoy,

Peter H
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 03:36:25 PM by PwH »
Is a Round Turn just a Grossly Overfed Seabird?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2009, 04:47:41 AM »
It is with great regret & dismay that I am unable to be in New Bedford,
partly because that is yet an active commercial-fishing, maritime port,
and there should be much to see & document along the wharfs.

I do hope that there are some fellow IGKTers there with cameras and
curiosity to take up some of this recording, and who can soon share
those knots in the wild on this forum.

Cheers,
--dl*
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alpineer

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2009, 07:29:00 AM »
It is with great regret & dismay that I am unable to be in New Bedford,
partly because that is yet an active commercial-fishing, maritime port,
and there should be much to see & document along the wharfs.

I do hope that there are some fellow IGKTers there with cameras and
curiosity to take up some of this recording, and who can soon share
those knots in the wild on this forum.

Cheers,
--dl*
====
I hope nothing too serious is keeping you from your desired venue Dan.

SS369

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2009, 06:45:43 PM »
During the trip to the New Bedford IGKT meeting we took a side jaunt to New England. We stayed on the coast in a small town north of Portsmouth (Nice town!). Rye is quaint and the beaches are rugged. As I jogged the morning surf I came to a mass of rocks and seaweed and I found this water knot entangled. As it was stretched tight and I could only briefly rotate it before the surf came rushing back in, I snapped these two and bolted.
Looks like a waterknot to me.


SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2009, 05:13:57 AM »
Excellent, SS!
And did your keen eye seek out other such knotting around
New Bedford's many active commercial-fishing docks?  That
was my goal (and hope for others to engage as well), but I
just couldn't spare the time.

As it was, I did manage to visit the Annapolis Sailboat Show
-- though, with my knack of timing, only after both the
NERopes fellow I'm to arrange some testing with (courtesy of
Brion Toss) had departed, and after Brion, too (who'd lately
announced his attendance, with a series of talks through
SUNday, not my Monday visit), had gone (I surmise).

Well, I did gander at the Pride of Baltimore, which some IGKT
have lent a hand working on (I think -- the local sub-branch
has a contact hosting USS Constellation work who has involved
us in Pride-ful work, or offered).

--dl*
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SS369

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2009, 02:34:53 PM »
My keen eyes sought the excellent displays at the meeting, the sights in the whaling museum, the kind faces of friends who till that meeting had been letters and words only and then the backs of their lids. The next day I put in the 13+ hours to get us home.
I was on a short schedule and never got close enough to any other "In the Wild" knotting to take worthwhile pictures.
Perhaps next time Dan, perhaps a picture of you as well.  ;)

SS

dfred

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Re: Knots **In The Wild**
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2009, 04:11:51 AM »
It is with great regret & dismay that I am unable to be in New Bedford,
partly because that is yet an active commercial-fishing, maritime port,
and there should be much to see & document along the wharfs.

I do hope that there are some fellow IGKTers there with cameras and
curiosity to take up some of this recording, and who can soon share
those knots in the wild on this forum.


Hi Dan, don't dismay!  I've been catching up on work things and just starting to go through all the images I took in NB.

A subset of the Guild group toured Reidar's Manufacturing, a net maker and repair facility in Fairhaven across the harbor from New Bedford.  I spoke at moderate length to one of the younger guys at Reidar's, Hans, about utility knots still used in fishing.  In addition to the well-known ones, he showed me one he called the "Stevedore knot", which really would be more accurately called a "Stevedore hitch".  It's probably most reasonably considered a variant of a timber hitch but with the structure and tying method more like a packers/butcher's knot.  It substitutes a Stevedore knot (or as he tied it a Stevedore + a turn) in place of the figure-eight in a packer's knot.  Instead of a binding arrangement, the hitch is allowed to tighten noose-like around the hitched object.  In many ways it behaves like a timber hitch due to the number of self-wraps the working end makes around itself after passing around the standing part, but with the end passing back out of the knot where the standing part also exits. (Hopefully all that makes sense)  As he demonstrated it, it was very quick to tie (I shot a short video) and it seemed both reasonably secure and easy to release.  I failed to get a sense from him whether this was in wide use.  I also got a number of shots of more involved knots/wrappings/etc. used in the construction of various nets.

On Sunday, after a very extensive harbor tour arranged by Bob Dollar, covering both the New Bedford and Fairhaven waterfronts, I walked around one of the NB wharfs (Fisherman's Wharf Pier #3, according to Google map) and I took a fair number pictures and even spoke to a couple fisherman.  Although nothing ground-breaking was learned here, a strange sense of history seemed to settle upon me; being a non-fisherman down on the New Bedford waterfront quizzing folks who make their living with ropes, nets, splices, and knots.  This was heightened later by a very memorable visit the Ashley farm that same afternoon.

Once I sort through all the images I took I'll be posting some here and possibly in one or two other threads.