International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: James Petersen on November 12, 2020, 07:09:12 AM

Title: Twice-Bitten Bowline
Post by: James Petersen on November 12, 2020, 07:09:12 AM
So would a bowline be more secure if the tail were nipped by a second nipping turn after being nipped by the first? Here is my attempt.

The knot is started normally by creating the nipping turn and the eye of the knot. After passing the working end through the nipping turn, the  a turn is made around the top leg of the nipping turn, exiting the nipping turn on the bight side of the same. The working end then passes around behind the standing part, creating the collar and returns back through both the  original nipping turn and the secondary one just created. When dressed and pulled up, the working end protrudes, pointing out laterally away from the knot. The working end is then passed up through the collar, completing the knot.

The knot, when dressed, is quite compact and seems secure. It also seems easy enough to remember, if one can remember a standard bowline.

Thoughts?

JEP

Title: Re: Twice Bitten Bowline
Post by: James Petersen on November 12, 2020, 07:10:30 AM
Completed knot.
Title: Re: Twice-Bitten Bowline
Post by: tsik_lestat on November 12, 2020, 11:41:26 AM
Hello JEP

It is certainly a nice attempt albeit, it has come up before, as one of the Lee-zep bowline structures developed of course by Alan Lee.

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg27595#msg27595 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg27595#msg27595)  (fourth image)

If your returning eye leg turn, is being replaced by `a myrtle` turn (thus capturing the crossing point of the nipping loop), then you get a more secure and stable`Lee-zep Variation`a precursor knot of Lee's link bowline.

I see that you have already fed the WE down through the collar at your second image series, although this extra maneuver does not lead to tibness as in Lee's link.

Ps: i like the " bitten term". I find its use apropriate when a U turn "bites" the continuation of a collar and saves it from jamming  ;).
Title: Re: Twice-Bitten Bowline
Post by: James Petersen on November 12, 2020, 03:22:45 PM
Hello JEP

It is certainly a nice attempt albeit, it has come up before, as one of the Lee-zep bowline structures developed of course by Alan Lee.

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg27595#msg27595 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg27595#msg27595)  (fourth image)
...

Thank you, T_L. That is indeed the one. Though I was apparently working from the idea of an extra turn added in the knot while Allen Lee seems to have had a zeppelin knot in mind, the result is the same.

I see that you have already fed the WE down through the collar at your second image series, although this extra maneuver does not lead to tibness as in Lee's link.

Ps: i like the " bitten term". I find its use apropriate when a U turn "bites" the continuation of a collar and saves it from jamming  ;).

I did indeed notice that this knot is decidedly non-TIBable -- stupefyingly so. :o

JEP
Title: Re: Twice-Bitten Bowline
Post by: tsik_lestat on November 13, 2020, 09:01:47 PM
then a turn is made around the top leg of the nipping turn,

I did indeed notice that this knot is decidedly non-TIBable -- stupefyingly so. :o

If you are still aftering the tibness but don't want necessarily to insert "a myrtle turn" (around the nipping loop's crossing point to form Lee's link bowline), then your other option is to insert "a wheel turn", around Spart's continuation and follow the rest of your tying steps to form the Wheel house bowline by Enhaut.

This is another interesting TIB bowline structure, which i accidentally forgot to mention in my previous reply.

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6262.msg42178#msg42178 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6262.msg42178#msg42178)

Well, in an attempt to summarize the "link bowline concept" i would add the following....

JEP turn (link) = JEP's twice-bitten bowline or Lee's zep A2 X bowline= compact but non -TIBable

Myrtle turn (link) = Lee's link bowline = TIBable

Wheel turn (link) = Enhaut's wheel house bowline = TIBable

Note, that Lee's link is mostly tied and illustrated in an S nipping loop fashion, but you might as well get the mirror results using your initial Z nipping loop.
Title: Re: Twice-Bitten Bowline
Post by: James Petersen on November 14, 2020, 09:21:47 AM
Playing with the turn-over-nip idea I ended up at an OH knot mingled with the nip ...

JEP
Title: Re: Twice-Bitten Bowline
Post by: James Petersen on November 14, 2020, 02:38:33 PM
...And with a turn around the nip after forming the collar...


JEP