International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: markc on October 28, 2020, 02:41:43 PM

Title: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on October 28, 2020, 02:41:43 PM
Hello,

I just joined this forum, though I'm a seasoned lurker.  I'm a very amateur hobbyist with knots, though I have done a fair bit of "rigging" in farming, construction, and trucking applications over the years.  Mostly, I just like knots - they relieve stress, in lots of ways and for many reasons.

Anyway, that's obviously not the subject of this post.  I'm asking a question about a real time-waster:  I need to be able to tie string trimmer line (strimmer line, I think, in many parts of the world) to a 10mm stainless steel pin for the purpose of, well, strimming.  The need for it to be secure is pretty obvious, but I can't come up with anything that will hold in this stiff, slick worst-of-all-possible material.  (In case anyone is wondering, I'm using a string trimmer head sold as "The Badgerhead" in the U.S.A., and the default configuration is to use 2 or 4 double-long lengths of line, which produces 4 or 8 trimming lines, but I prefer having 2 or 4 lines for lighter-duty cordless trimmers.)

I do have a solution that works, but it's not a knot, which leaves me feeling defeated: I use a very small and lightweight (for obvious reasons) aluminum crimp sleeve to make a 1" or so loop in the end, then fold that loop over on itself to provide a double "load bearing" surface on the pin.  It works like a champ, except that I feel beaten every time I use the trimmer, which makes me not want to do the yard work, which irritates the wife (ok, a bit of exaggeration there)...

Thanks for reading and for any suggestions the brain trust might have,

Mark
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: mainebingo on October 28, 2020, 03:37:41 PM
Have you tried the Canadian jam/arbor knot?  Otherwise, the uni-knot or similar fishing knot (often tied in slick, stiff, monofilament)?
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: Groundline on October 28, 2020, 03:46:28 PM
Try tying the trimmer line submerged in a pan of hot water.
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 29, 2020, 11:57:46 PM
I need to be able to tie string trimmer line ... to a 10mm stainless steel pin
 for the purpose of, well, strimming.  ...
 I'm using a string trimmer head sold as "The Badgerhead" in the U.S.A.,
and the default configuration is to use 2 or 4 double-long lengths of line,
which produces 4 or 8 trimming lines, but I prefer having 2 or 4 lines for lighter-duty cordless trimmers.)
Okay, so you want to have just one line (or maybe
one & one opposite) rather than what I'm seeing
in some promo for the trimmer you name.  And
the issue of friction on the spinning pin goes away
because the line runs out past a post that will bring
it around & around --THAT at first puzzled me (your
question)!

Well, geeesh, I have a zillion just-fiddled "noose-hitches"
of which I'd think most should work.  Now to go maybe
find a sample of your line and see if I can figure out a
good recommendation.  Seems that in terms of relative
sizes --line & object-hitched-- we're looking at maybe
a PILE hitch (broad object), or a large *spar*.

Meanwhile, is there no clever way to use the Badgerhead's
own string-clamping? mechanism(s) for your purpose?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on October 30, 2020, 02:56:39 PM
Okay, so you want to have just one line (or maybe
one & one opposite) rather than what I'm seeing
in some promo for the trimmer you name.  And
the issue of friction on the spinning pin goes away
because the line runs out past a post that will bring
it around & around --THAT at first puzzled me (your
question)!

Well, geeesh, I have a zillion just-fiddled "noose-hitches"
of which I'd think most should work.  Now to go maybe
find a sample of your line and see if I can figure out a
good recommendation.  Seems that in terms of relative
sizes --line & object-hitched-- we're looking at maybe
a PILE hitch (broad object), or a large *spar*.

Meanwhile, is there no clever way to use the Badgerhead's
own string-clamping? mechanism(s) for your purpose?

--dl*
====

Yes, I'd want two lines for balance (one each on opposite sides).  They attach to the 10mm (approximate) stainless steel pins, so there is some friction as they move back and forth during the spinning of the head, especially as the lines contact grass, brush, etc.  I think they actually attach to what you're calling the post, and can rotate 180? or so on it, though in actual use centrifugal force would keep relatively straight out from the center of the shaft.

I've tried to play with 10% or so of a zillion hitches, but can't get the line to conform to the curves necessary to create the friction to get them to hold, at least not in any line larger than .065".  My preferred line size is .080" or .095".

Re the Badgerhead's provided mechanism, there's no "clamping" per se - a double-length piece of line runs through a plastic piece that pivots on the stainless steel pin.  If fact, if you put a piece of line into the holder that's a bit smaller than the hole, it can easily come out during use, unless you loop the line back over the plastic piece before inserting it into the pin.  The pins lift up to allow insertion of the holder and are held down magnetically.  There's a very good depiction of this method and a few other stringing methods in a pdf on their site, http://thebadgerhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/ALT_ATTACHMENT_METHODS.pdf.  I didn't include any reference to their site before because I didn't want my post to be construed as a plug for the product (though it is so much better than the bump heads that I use it exclusively now).

The basic problem here (which I suspect you've already surmised) is that I'm a nut.  I could run one long piece of line tied around the center hub (about 2" diameter) with a double overhand knot or similar, then out across opposite pins, but that would waste 8" or so of line with each use.  Of course, it would probably take more than that much line to tie two hitches, assuming an acceptable knot exists...  (My wife has already countered that issue with the correct assertion that, with all the line I've acquired over the years, playing with cutting/noise/longevity comparisons, I'll never use it all in my remaining lifespan, anyway.  Being a nut is a curse, except that it doesn't take much to occupy my attention.)
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on October 30, 2020, 02:59:48 PM
Have you tried the Canadian jam/arbor knot?  Otherwise, the uni-knot or similar fishing knot (often tied in slick, stiff, monofilament)?

I have, actually - I can't get the overhand stopper knot to stay put in the line.
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on October 30, 2020, 03:02:11 PM
Try tying the trimmer line submerged in a pan of hot water.

This does help considerably, and I suspect it'll be a necessary part of tying any knot that will work, but I haven't found that knot yet, even with the assistance of the additional flexibility it imparts to the line.
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: James Petersen on October 31, 2020, 06:31:45 AM
Hello, Markc

When I was young, I used to log with my brothers and father using a caterpillar D8 with a drum and one-inch steel cable. Sometimes we would break the cable near the terminal end and would have to re-attach the bull hook in order to continue working. To do this, my father would use a simple loop which could be tightened using the drum of the D8 to pull on the standing end of the line. It is no simple matter to tie knots in 5/8" or 3/4" steel cable but this was easily achieved by hooking the bull hook to a set of chokers (which were attached to logs) and pulling with the drum on the D8. I have later found that this knot performs in the same way in very thick monofilament. I posted this knot some years ago in the Knotting Concepts and Explorations forum. https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4315.0 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4315.0)

It sounds to me that this knot would fit the bill.

Regards.

JP
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on October 31, 2020, 12:01:33 PM
Hello JP,

Thanks very much for the suggestion!  I don't recall ever seeing that knot before, and I'm definitely going to try it.

Thanks again,

Mark
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 31, 2020, 06:04:31 PM
Well, geeesh, I have a zillion just-fiddled "noose-hitches"
of which I'd think most should work.  Now to go maybe
find a sample of your line and see if I can figure out a
good recommendation.  Seems that in terms of relative
sizes --line & object-hitched-- we're looking at maybe
a PILE hitch (broad object), or a large *spar*.
OOOOooookaaayyyyyyyy.  I found something green,
maybe 1.5mm dia? and looking like the stuff swung
by weedwhackers, anyway.  And I got nowhere trying
to convince it to be tied --now *I*'m fit to be tied!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on November 01, 2020, 12:11:27 AM
dl,

If nothing else, sir, please find comfort in the fact that I feel considerably less inept.  Seeing so distinguished a knot-head (and I mean that in the most complimentary sense possible!) as yourself "fit to be tied" makes me feel MUCH better!

Mark
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: roo on November 01, 2020, 04:08:50 AM
dl,

If nothing else, sir, please find comfort in the fact that I feel considerably less inept.  Seeing so distinguished a knot-head (and I mean that in the most complimentary sense possible!) as yourself "fit to be tied" makes me feel MUCH better!

Mark
Do you have a list of knots or hitches that have failed thus far?
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: SS369 on November 01, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Hi markc.

Some time back I decided to do a decorative knot (pineapple) using some surplus trimmer line. It proved to be a real bear, but I made it most of the way, I ran out of of length...
It had me wondering what I could do to make it more supple to work. I found that a heat gun, used judiciously, did help.

If you have access to some form of heat, say a lighter, heat gun, etc., give it a try. I just now set a simple overhand tied with a bight.
Being nylon, I can not swear that the affair won?t break on first use, but the knot is simple to tie and it stayed tight during my play.
Give it a whirl.

SS
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: markc on November 02, 2020, 02:58:18 PM
Do you have a list of knots or hitches that have failed thus far?

No, I'm afraid I haven't done anything nearly so formal, mostly because my attempts with a few basic knots have been complete disasters - the stuff is just so stiff and slick to even get the knot started.  I deliberated quite a while before posting this, because I was afraid it was a complete waste of everyone's time.  Still, it's everyone's time to waste (as in their decision), and some really magical things can be done with knots, if you know just the right combination.

Mark
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: Trakl on December 08, 2020, 02:34:18 AM
Greeting Markc,

Not sure you'll be needed to use your string trimmer at this late in the season, but after seeing your post i went down and cut off a length of my trimming string and fooled around a bit.

The first problem is making sure you have enough of a working end to maneuver when making your turns.  I found that simple overhand knots with the least amount of tucks and turns made it much easier. You will of course want to clip the end once the knot is pulled tight.  I started with two locking/sliding loops, both of which seemed more than secure for your purposes.  Unfortunately i don't have the ability to upload pictures or videos at this time so i can only give you the names.  The first one was Dr. Harry Asher's Locking Loop that was published in Knotting Matters issue 42.  The next knot is called the Slip & Nip Noose and was published in issue no. 8 of the same publication, and was discovered by Dr. Brooks A. Mick of Findlay, Ohio.

You can also search up arthroscopic knots online, like the Wiese sliding-locking knot, which would also serve you well.

Finally, as a simple, brilliant, and never-over-recommended choice, i point you to the zeppelin loop knot, which, when dressed, seemed ample as well.

I hope this helps to free you from your crimps.....
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: KC on December 09, 2020, 09:35:49 PM
Slick, too stiff to seat well, single, solid filament material.
Monofilament as closest material and even design match? 
Monofilament type knots?
.
Still think butane back splice or light tack weld after Standing Part and Primary Arc to later ropePart is good strategy too.
Title: Re: Trying to tie a secure loop/hitch in (s)trimmer line...
Post by: Twine on December 18, 2020, 11:19:31 PM
I suggest you tie the string to the pin with a stoppered clove hitch. Make the stopper a figure of 9 knot. A clove hitch with such a stopper is a very strong and secure gripping hitch and/or binder. Also, it's self-dressing, so you only need to pull hard on one part, the other is stopped by the stopper. I wish people would consider this knot more often, but I suppose it doesn't seem "pure" enough. Since it is made up of two knots, I guess most see it as just a simple improvement on a clove hitch, and nobody would ever attempt a clove hitch in this situation.

Anyway, pull hard enough on the standing (actually swinging) part, and the knot will grip very hard even on polished steel. Try it, and you may be surprised.