International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: evan@hudsonmcdonald.com on September 18, 2020, 12:33:49 AM

Title: Ashley Stopper modified for Dyneema
Post by: evan@hudsonmcdonald.com on September 18, 2020, 12:33:49 AM
Sorry...it's a short video of how to tie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii4c7aRonOQ

Modified ABoK #526 (oyseterman's stopper) to make it more slip resistant. Is this an existing knot, and if so, has anyone load tested it? I wanted to come up with a better looking Stopper knot that the EStar Stopper, and this modification shown has worked well on my boat so far in a highly loaded application.

Evan
Title: Re: Ashley Stopper modified for Dyneema
Post by: agent_smith on September 18, 2020, 05:43:26 AM
Hello Evan and thanks for sharing your passion!

I'm not sure about the originality of your presentation - and it wont be long before we can get an informed opinion about it.

Some points:
[ ] At 0:33 in your video you have a 'slipped' stopper knot...might be interesting to play with that geometry to see how it performs. Being 'slipped' makes it potentially easier to untie in the future (if that ever become a necessity).

[ ] #526 (Oysterman's stopper) is also known as the Ashley stopper knot.
Something that I discovered about #526 a while back is that it is in fact topologically equivalent to none other than the simple #1010 Bowline.
In other words, if you tie a simple (#1010) Bowline - and then collapse it - you end up with #526.
This means they are 'topologically' equivalent.
I'm not sure if this has been noticed before?

One thing, when tying #1010 simple Bowline, you can orient the 'tail' in 2 different positions (either drawn through the 'eye' of the Bowline or not).
Also, as with all knots, they can be tied in mirror opposite 'chirality' - both being equally valid.
That is, if you tie a simple Bowline and hold it up to a plane mirror - you will see an inverted virtual image that is equally valid. Most knot tyers tend to tie their knots in a certain way - and this is usually determined by their 'dominant' hand (ie a right handed person tends to tie a knot 'mirror reflected' relative to a left-handed person).
The same would apply to your presentation - in that you can hold it up to a mirror and see an equally valid inverted form.
Title: Re: Ashley Stopper modified for Dyneema
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 18, 2020, 10:30:51 PM
I wanted to come up with a better looking Stopper knot that the EStar Stopper,
and this modification shown has worked well on my boat so far in a highly loaded application.
So, Evan's vs. Evans's !   ;D

Note that a main problem with Ashley's stopper
is that loading it doesn't tighten the bulk of the
knot and there's a vulnerability for the SPart's
nipping turn to pull though --one must set the
overhand part well!  If one ties much the same
thing but with the overhand in reverse orientation,
the SPart will turn around one side, so it cannot
pull through --and one still gets that nice 3-sided
stopper face.

Your slipping the knot helps prevent pull-through,
too; and then you tuck the tail through the slip-bight
to lock it further : I should hope that this all will
hold in HMPE rope (but EStar claims some surprising
slippages!).  I think you're on the right track.

Another tact to take is the *doubling* of the bulk
component, the overhand, by which I mean going
around that again (not using a "double o."), which
will build bulk and security.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Ashley Stopper modified for Dyneema
Post by: Dennis Pence on January 09, 2022, 10:55:57 PM
With regard to Reply #1, the relationship between the Bowline (with a decreased loop) [which can be found in The Outdoor Knots Book, by Clyde Soles, The Mountaineers Books, 2004 where it is called a Bowline Stopper Knot] and the Ashley Stopper Knot is also mentioned in The Everything Knots Book, by Randy Penn, Adams Media, 2004.  There on page 58, Penn writes, "An alternative way to tie this knot (which he calls the Oysterman's Stopper) is to make a Bowline Loop (see Chapter 6), made so small that it is right up against the knot. It will be facing the wrong way, but can be reversed if, while there is still a bit of slack, the center is pulled through the middle by bracing the knot and pulling on the running end. This reversal is called 'capsizing.'"  You can also see the connection if you look at what Ashley calls the Hawser Bowline [ABoK #1014], which is a method which is as close as Ashley gets to the Bowline tying method that goes by many names (Rapid Method, Boy's Method, etc.) beginning with a loose Noose. In the Rapid Method the "capsizing" mentioned by Penn goes the other way to turn a loose Ashley Stopper Knot into a Bowline.

With regard to Reply #2, Ashley himself gives two ways to "double" [ABoK #526] which is now generally called the Ashley Stopper Knot.  The first [ABoK #552], I find is the easiest to tie and tighten.  Ashley does not give tying instructions, but this is essentially what Dan might be describing when he talks about "doubling" the Overhand part of the Ashley Stopper Knot.  When tightening [ABoK #552], follow Dan's suggestion to tighten the Overhand Part (now doubled) first before tightening the part with the free end that goes through the Noose. The second [ABoK #553] is more difficult to tie and tighten.  Again, Ashley does not give tying instructions, but they can be worked out by following his diagrams.  Either of these two "enhancements" of the Ashley Stopper Knot should work well in Dyneena.  I have more detailed tying instructions for these two "doublings" of [ABoK #526] if anyone is interested.