International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: Ezelius on March 31, 2020, 12:01:19 PM

Title: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on March 31, 2020, 12:01:19 PM
Dear Sirs,

I have probably invented a knot, because it seems it can not be found published anywhere. I call it an Ezelius-loop. It is a slit knot that locks oneself. It can be used for many things, for example as adjustable loop for a tent. I for example use it to give wanted tension to a line for drying clothes. I find it performs very well. It locks well. It is adjustable. It can be used on different materials of lines (polyester, polyamide). I think there is not a great number of good knots for adjustable loops, and this knot is both simple and good performing.

Link for image of the knot:
https://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusoegla/en.html

I invented the knot by myself trying to find something better than modifierad taeltlineknop on page 160 in a book (Geoffrey Budworth and Richard Hopkins, 2010, Vilken knop?, ISBN 978-91-7401-107-4) - an image of the page is attached. Modifierad taeltlineknop was knot that I did not find very good. So the process was conscious/deliberate try to find something that had good performance as locking knot for a loop. The idea I had was to go backwards on the rope in order to create a lever that forced the standing part to make a curve instead of going straight through the lose part.

I must admit that I did not know of the rolling hitch at the time of invention, although I have used two half hitches for making an adjustable loop sometimes. To my experience two half hitches do not perform well, but the rolling hitch actually did when I tried it yesterday after email conversation.

The rolling hitch #1734 is also good performing, but I think that Ezelius-loop has a tendency to be more secure.

I found the rolling hitch #1735 to be less good then Ezelius-loop. Actually Ezelius-loop is alike #1735. The difference is that the last stick (the finishing half hitch) is made below two lines instead of one. One could call Ezelius-loop to be an improvement of #1735, although Ezelius-knot was invented without knowledge of #1735.

Yours Sincerely, Mr Ezelius


https://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusoegla/

https://ezelius.eu/knopar/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_hitch

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopperstek
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Kost_Greg on April 01, 2020, 05:11:16 PM
@ Mr Ezelius

I believe your creation is more related to a buntline hitch, rather than to a rolling hitch. It could be considered as a double buntline, or a two wrap buntline, or a clove hitch with two riding turns with the working end tucked under these turns, tied obviously on the standing part of the rope.

It is definitely well-secured as a buntline enhancement, while the rolling hitch might not be appropriate for a noose related application, as you correctly point out.

A double constrictor, would be an alternate noose structure development, with a slightly different tucking, just right after those two riding turn formation.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 01, 2020, 05:39:45 PM
Dear tsik_lestat,

I would like to clarify that Ezelius-loop is not a noose, i.e. in the same family as clove hitch, two half-hitches or buntline hitch. Ezelius-loop belongs to the family of slide and grip knots as for example Blake's hitch and rolling hitch.

But you have a point, on the images of the rolling hitch a thinner rope is attached to a thicker rope. But the rolling hitch can as well be used to make a loop on the same line. In the other way an Ezelius-loop would be usable to attach a thinner line to a thicker line, I would imagine - I will have to test this.

You make me realize that my knot should not be called a loop, as it in fact can be used as a knot to attach one rope to another in a slide and grip fashion. My suggestion is to have separate names depending on the use, and to add friction to the knot name in order to make it clear what kind of knot it is:

1. Ezelius adjustable loop : the variant when an adjustable loop is made

2. Ezelius friction knot/hitch : the variant when one rope is attached to another

Yours Sincerely, Mr Ezelius
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 01, 2020, 05:57:53 PM
I have now tested an Ezelius friction knot and it performs well as far as I can see. Se image for the knot I made where a thinner rope attaches to a thicker rope. A negative side is that it may be stuck too tight so it is not so easy to adjust/slide after being subjected to load. It is also a little tricky to unmake, too tricky to make me completely pleased. So the knot maybe not the best for use on ropes of too different thicknesses. The knot has to be tested more in real life applications and also compared to other alternatives.

 I tried a barrel knot with the same ropes, but the knot seemed very unsafe and prone to open itself.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Kost_Greg on April 01, 2020, 07:16:56 PM
Thanks for these clarifications. I had emphasized to your previous description and depiction of your knot structure as a loop, and i had not realised its versatility in the first place.

It seems that it might work as a slide and grip hitch, considering parameteres such as rope thickness/stifness with respect to delivering friction, but there are more specialised knotters than me, like arborists/climbers to adjudge that.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 01, 2020, 07:20:41 PM
I do not think the knot would very good for use as a slip and grip knot in climbing, as a replacement for e.g. Klemmheist or Machard, but this would have to be further investigated. It think it fits better for use for applications like adjustable loops to give tent lines wanted tension.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 02, 2020, 06:13:09 AM
per Ezelius:
Quote
I would like to clarify that Ezelius-loop is not a noose,
The structure shown in this link: https://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusoegla/  is a noose.

The structure shown in this link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopperstek  is a slide and grip hitch (tied from a singular linear length of cord).

Note:
Slide and grip hitches are characterized by a material that binds/encircles around and crushes/grips its host. The 'host' is normally a rope.
Therefore, you need 2 entities...a host and a separate structure that grips its host.
There is no adjustable eye.

In the case of a 'noose' - the gripping segment binds/encircles around its own SPart (it is constructed from its own singular material).
This creates an adjustable eye.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 02, 2020, 07:29:20 AM
Dear agent_smith,

Thank you for helping out with knot terminology. I thought a noose was a knot that self tightens in the way that the loop gets smaller until it encircles the object  it holds on to.  When I looking at the internet, to me it seems like nooses are snares, i.e. loops/eyes that become smaller under load.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noose
https://www.realknots.com/knots/noose.htm
https://www.animatedknots.com/noose-knot

Would a slide and grip knot (as opposed to a hitch) be allowed to grip its own part?

A regular loop is as far as I can see knots as angler's loop, Flemish loop or bowline. The eye/loop is fixed, i.e. not adjustable. But would it allowed to call an adjustable eye a loop also?

Still being a bit confused, I wonder what the most correct name of my invention would be, when speaking about the eye version as depicted on the images here? Note that the eye can be adjusted after the knot has been made, comparably to a slide and grip knot or friction knot.

https://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusoegla/

For the case the knot is used to grip a host, would it then be correct to use the name Ezelius friction hitch or Ezelius slide and grip hitch?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friction_hitch_knots

The Ezelius adjustable loop knot would be in the same category as e.g. Adjustable grip hitch and taut-line hitch (the loop version of rolling hitch). By the way the Adjustable grip hitch (Adjustable Cawley Hitch) seems excellent, and comparable to the Ezelius adjustable loop/hitch in security and behavior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjustable_grip_hitch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taut-line_hitch

Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 02, 2020, 08:35:31 AM
I tested Ezelius adjustable loop/eye knot/hitch, Adjustable Cawley Hitch and the Taut-line Hitch (the loop version of rolling hitch) on a 2 mm thick slippery cord of probably polyester and the result is as follows:

The taut-line hitch do not comply at all. The friction is not enough, so the loop behaves like a snare even for very small loads.

The Ezelius adjustable loop/eye knot/hitch and adjustable Cawley hitch are very close in performance. The friction is enough to hold the loop even for large loads. The adjustable Cawley hitch might be slightly stronger for extreme cases when one only apply tension to one of the sides of the loop, but this is unlikely to happen in a real life application. The adjustable Cawley hitch is easier to untie after being subjected to intense load. The Ezelius adjustable loop/eye knot/hitch is more unlikely to be unmade by accident during use.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 02, 2020, 08:55:32 AM
Attached image illustrates a few concepts.

Please note that there is no universally accepted knot terminology and definitions.
If you look to Ashley for clarity, you will also be disappointed.
Even the IGKT does not have a sanctioned document of well defined knot terminology or definitions ... and I suspect that I wont see anything of that type in my lifetime!
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 02, 2020, 01:37:29 PM
Thanks for showing me the page with concepts.

I also had a look in A Glossary for Practical Knot Tyers (Ver. 1.9 2019 Robert G Birch)
https://www.igkt.net/component/phocadownload/category/2-pdf?download=146:a-glossary-for-knot-tyers
and there I got the impression that a nose is a running eye knot (snare). The term hitch could be used both in a functional sense or a structural sense. In a functional sense a hitch is any knot that secures a line to a solid (which also can be another line). Historically a loop could be nooses or fixed eye knots, but modern use is eye knot.

In Swedish language my invention is called Ezelius-oegla, which translates to Ezelius eye. The glossary also says that it would more correct to name it an eye. The knot is also a hitch according to the glossarty, and there are other knots of the same family as adjustable grip hitch (Adjustable Cawley Hitch) and taut-line hitch (tent-line hitch) are called hitches. So a name that fits both termiology and previous use would be Ezelius adjustable eye hitch.

The variant that attaches a cord to another rope could be called a hitch according to the glossary. So my invention could be called something like Ezelius adjustable grip hitch. This also conforms to previous use as knots of the same class are called for example Blake's hitch, Distel Hitch, Klemheist hitch, Icicle hitch, etc.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 02, 2020, 07:26:26 PM
Now I have made a page in English language about the Ezelius adjustable eye hitch:
https://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusoegla/en.html
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 02, 2020, 11:45:32 PM
I made some more testing, and discovered that other knots (the adjustable Cawley hitch #1994, the taut-line hitch #1856 and the midshipman's hitch #1855) did not function at all on typical ropes for climbing of polyamide (nylon) because they are stiff and slippery. Ezelius eye clearly has a void to fill out. I tried on Edelrid Powerloc expert SP 7mm 14kN polyamide cord (EDELRID?s classic, very hard-wearing accessory cord with low elongation and excellent knotability) and Simond 6 mm 9 kN polyamide cordelette (suitable for making a Prusik or Klemheist knot, or any type of friction hitch for abseiling down). Actually the Ezelius eye was developed with the Simond 6 mm 9 kN polyamide cordelette. The modified tentline knot in the book I had did not function on that rope, so I started to try to try to develop my own knot.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 04, 2020, 01:20:16 AM
Hmmm, I had some mixed results --some slipping,
some not-- in some old firm, stiff marine? kernmantle.
Will have to try further with other stuff.  (I'd run a
1" laid rope though the eye of the knot, so there was
friction at the turn to help resist slipping.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 04, 2020, 02:14:57 AM
per Ezelius:
Quote
I made some more testing, and discovered that other knots (the adjustable Cawley hitch #1994, the taut-line hitch #1856 and the midshipman's hitch #1855) did not function at all on typical ropes for climbing of polyamide (nylon) because they are stiff and slippery.
All of these structures fall under the broad category of 'hitches'.
Within that broad category (ie hitches) - there are sub-classes:
[ ] load control hitches (eg #206 Crossing hitch is a load control hitch)
[ ] slide and grip progression hitches (eg for ascent/descent) - eg #1763 Prusik hitch is a slide and grip progression hitch
[ ] nooses (eg #409 Poachers noose and related #1120 Scaffold noose)
[ ] binders (eg a great example of which is the #1188 Constrictor hitch)

All hitches require a 'host'.
When the 'host' is removed - the hitch ceases to exist.
And this is a defining characteristic of all hitches...in that a 'host' is required.
I think of this in terms of a symbiotic relationship between the host and client... in this case, it is commensalism.

Quote
I tried on Edelrid Powerloc expert SP 7mm 14kN polyamide cord (EDELRID?s classic, very hard-wearing accessory cord with low elongation and excellent knotability) and Simond 6 mm 9 kN polyamide cordelette (suitable for making a Prusik or Klemheist knot, or any type of friction hitch for abseiling down). Actually the Ezelius eye was developed with the Simond 6 mm 9 kN polyamide cordelette.
One of the best all-round accessory cords (EN 564) is made by Sterling USA.
Particularly their 8.0mm diameter high strength cords.
You will find that the performance of all slide and grip progression hitches are highly dependent on the textile material they are formed from (which includes the interface between host and client).
I use Sterling accessory cord for virtually all my life critical applications... and so do many rope access and vertical rescue technicians.

Quote
Actually the Ezelius eye was developed with the Simond 6 mm 9 kN polyamide cordelette.
Again, the notional concept of the term 'eye' can be problematic.
It really depends on how 'technical' one wants to be with use of terminology.
As this is the IGKT and the fact that there are many 'enthusiasts' visiting, they tend to have a penchant for technical detail.

So again...a noose belongs to the broader class of 'hitches'.
And all hitches require a host to form around. When that host is removed, the hitch ceases to exist.
In the specific case of a 'noose' (which is a type of 'hitch') - it is formed around its own SPart.
In other words, there is only one singular length or material (eg cord) - not 2 independent lengths of material.
A noose is its own self host.
A noose has an adjustable 'eye'.

In the case of a slide and grip progression hitch, there is no adjustable eye (in fact, there is no eye at all).
Furthermore, this type of 'hitch' requires an independent host (ie a completely separate length of material).

EDIT NOTE:
Most knot enthusiasts look to Ashley for definitions and technical understanding.
However, Ashley was not specific in his definitions.
As the world has evolved, knot tyers have evolved too.
More and more complex structures have been discovered and more technical deep understanding has been sort after.

I wish Ashley had defined all hitches as requiring a host.
And I wish that he further divided the broader category of hitches into distinct sub-classes.

The same goes for 'Bowlines', 'loops', 'turns', 'chirality', etc...
Its not defined with precision (in my view).

Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 04, 2020, 10:20:32 AM
Dan_Lehman, Thank's for testing the knot on different ropes. The knot can be tightened by pulling two of the cords. I do that in order to get the wanted grip. Also, if possible it would be interesting to know if any alternative knot would perform better for a specific rope.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 04, 2020, 09:51:32 PM
if any alternative knot would perform better for a specific rope.

Blake's hitch" (aka per me "ProhGrip") is what worked best
in one test of kermantle ropes; one might want to adjust
the standard number of wraps, adding more around the
tail in really stiff rope, or around the end beyond the tail
if slipperiness seems to be in need of redress.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 05, 2020, 12:18:39 PM
Dear Dan Lehman,

I tried Blake's hitch on my Simond 6 mm 9 kN polyamide cordelette. Both the 4/2 and 5/3 variant functioned. On this rope Blake's hitch and the Ezelius adustable eye seem comparable. Thank you for helping me out!

Yours Sincerely, Mr Ezelius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake%27s_hitch
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 05, 2020, 04:07:14 PM
I tried Blake's hitch on Edelrid Powerloc expert SP 7mm 14kN polyamide cord. It is a little tricky at first to handle the knot while tightening it (to set it), it has a tendency to undress. But practice makes it easier. The 4/2 was a little weaker, and the 5/3 similar in grip strength as the Ezelius eye. For this rope I think I would prefer the Ezelius eye because it more straightforward to tighten and because there seems to be some possibility for the loose strand (tail, end) to work its way out of the knot in some circumstances.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 06, 2020, 02:02:07 AM
Hi All. This is a non slip, jam resistance adjustable loop. The collar near standing part have to dress it narrow.
          And it good for any kinds of ropes.  谢谢 alanleeknot.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 06, 2020, 08:06:44 PM
adjustable loop.
But only for an anticipated amount of adjustment,
with a tail reflecting the range of this, on the smaller
sizes.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 06, 2020, 11:27:13 PM

Quote
But only for an anticipated amount of adjustment,
with a tail reflecting the range of this, on the smaller
sizes.

         Hmmm, ? alanleeknots at you-tube.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Kost_Greg on April 07, 2020, 01:00:31 PM
@ Mr Alan Lee

I am not sure if you have noticed it, your nipping structure component, is a figure eight in this particular geometry, link/first image https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6622.msg44062#msg44062 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6622.msg44062#msg44062).

So, another decent implementation of this configuration, a figure eight based adjustable loop, where its delivering friction, is quite enough to lock/block the tail from slipping. Plus the jam resistance too. I didn't see that coming! ;)

Thanks for bringing it in  8).

Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 07, 2020, 08:04:15 PM
@ tsik_lestat

    Thanks for your honest comment, you are right  is a figure eight in this particular geometry.  谢谢 alanleeknot.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Ezelius on April 07, 2020, 08:13:20 PM
I have made an improved version about the Ezelius adjustable knots with better images and with the text edited on this page:
http://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusknop/en.html
Any suggestions to improve the text are welcome.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 07, 2020, 11:45:32 PM

Quote
But only for an anticipated amount of adjustment,
with a tail reflecting the range of this, on the smaller
sizes.

         Hmmm, ? alanleeknots at you-tube.

Hi Alan,
An interesting noose structure where there is a reversal of the SPart and tail.

Security is achieved when both legs of the 'eye' are loaded.
The figure 8 structure is distorted - to provide an illusion of a #206 crossing hitch.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 08, 2020, 12:24:13 AM
Quote
I have made an improved version about the Ezelius adjustable knots with better images and with the text edited on this page:
http://ezelius.eu/knopar/ezeliusknop/en.html
Any suggestions to improve the text are welcome.

The Ezelius hitch is interesting in its 2 corresponding forms.

[ ] In your first set of images - it is presented in noose form.

[ ] In the the second set of images, it is presented as a slide and grip progression hitch.

Note the correspondence between the two hitches.
In noose form, the SPart is its own 'host' and there is an adjustable eye.
In slide and grip progression form, an independent 'host' is required - and there is no adjustable eye.

The loading profile is different in both cases.
In noose form, the hitching component only has 50% load.

In slide and grip progression form, the hitching component has 100% load.
It is noticeable when the leg of the hitch is loaded - since it causes  greater distortion in the hitching structure.

...

Overall, a nice effort.

I must say that the Gnat hitch presented by roo some time ago is quite a remarkable hitch in its own right.
Link: https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

On this website, it is presented in noose form.
The Gnat hitch also has a corresponding slide and grip progression form (not shown).

Its a very efficient structure - requiring minimal rope to form the hitch.
It also has considerable grip strength - particularly in slide and grip progression form (because 100% load is directed to the hitching component.
In noose form, only 50% is directed to the hitching component.

I have been investigating if the Gnat hitch could be useful in surgical applications - which I think is worthy of follow up study. Surgeons are looking for new and improved hitches - and the Gnat hitch might be a promising alternative.
I have also been actively promoting the Gnat hitch (in noose form) as a foot stirrup used with a 'jumar' (ie mechanical ascender) for rope access technicians.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 08, 2020, 02:10:37 PM
Hi All, Another knot here, same idea with Canadian adjustable loop, a few quick test, and is not bad at all.
         Just so busy, will do more test later.
         while you are waiting, let just entertain you with my video.
         單手八字結自創 One handed Figure eight Knot    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2FlzGqDGcY
          谢谢 alanleeknot.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 10, 2020, 03:15:55 AM
Hi All,  Here is a  variation of the loop above, both of them will jam on heavy load. This improve variation can
          handed little more weight then the loop above , but too hard to tie and dress with stiff rope.
          谢谢 alanleeknot.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 10, 2020, 06:05:53 AM
Thanks Alan,
Your creation (at reply #28) jams because the nipping structure isn't 'TIB'.
Can you try to create a TIB form?
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 11, 2020, 08:40:00 AM
@ agent_smith,     Thanks for the reply.
Quote
Your creation (at reply #28) jams because the nipping structure isn't 'TIB'.
      In this case, the loop jam , have nothing to do with #206 nipping structure (TIB) or (Non TIB). This loop jam is because the collar near standing part is not narrow and is wide.
Quote
Can you try to create a TIB form?
      Will try, but is getting hard and harder, no sure I can find some decent knot any more.  谢谢 alanleeknot.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: agent_smith on April 11, 2020, 09:05:47 AM
Quote
have nothing to do with #206 nipping structure (TIB)
But... the nipping structure ends up not being TIB on account of the outgoing eye leg feeding back through the #206 Crossing hitch (thereby transforming it into something that isn't TIB - an overhand knot with a twist).
I think this plays a role in why it ultimately jams.
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 11, 2020, 07:03:01 PM

Quote
But only for an anticipated amount of adjustment,
with a tail reflecting the range of this, on the smaller
sizes.

         Hmmm, ? alanleeknots at you-tube.
TO be clear : the size of the eye in your adjustable
eye knot is limited to the length of tail you have,
which in the images looks to be such as to offer
maybe 5" eye or less.
Whereas, were the green-whipped tail instead the SPart,
and indefinite in length, so too would be the eye size.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Ezelius-loop - a novel adjustable knot
Post by: alanleeknots on April 12, 2020, 04:08:02 AM
@ agent_smith,
                       Never tie any adjustable loop with working end before, new territory for me. Any way I have a loop here, a few quick test
                       with 1/4" solid braid nylon rope, and it start to slip at around 20% of MBS. With 7/16 Blue water safe line it  start to slip around
                       300 KG. May only good light duty and soft rope. I guess learn from it, and try again.   谢谢 alanleeknot.