International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: tmayhew on January 24, 2019, 09:26:01 PM

Title: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on January 24, 2019, 09:26:01 PM
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwaymans hitch.  Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch. I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on January 25, 2019, 06:43:57 PM
I suggest this hitch be called the BULB hitch.  Bight, Underhand Loop, Bight.  The acronym describes how to tie the hitch.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Yablonsky on January 25, 2019, 08:22:48 PM
Looks similar if not the same as the Tumble Hitch

https://www.animatedknots.com/tumble/index.php
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on January 25, 2019, 11:40:16 PM
I agree it looks similar because it is a hitch but there is a distinct difference.  Please tie them both and Im sure you will agree.  Thanks for posting you feedback
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: roo on January 26, 2019, 07:00:19 AM
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwaymans hitch.  Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch. I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
I was trying this out, and sometimes I got a capsizing event with cyclical loading and it may have something to do with how I snugged up the hitch.  I'll have to look into it more later, but I'm running short on time right now.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: roo on January 27, 2019, 05:02:26 AM
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwaymans hitch.  Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch. I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
I was trying this out, and sometimes I got a capsizing event with cyclical loading and it may have something to do with how I snugged up the hitch.  I'll have to look into it more later, but I'm running short on time right now.
Trying again, I had a capsizing event when the line were not kept in contact with the object.  When tied in a hurry, I could see this happening, as it's not always easy to get the hitch to snug up the way you want. 

That said, this hitch is very interesting and I will probably keep looking at what makes it tick.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on January 28, 2019, 05:11:20 PM
Hi Roo

Thank you for taking the time to review this hitch.  I suggest dressing the knot in this fashion.  A bight has a working and a standing part.  Pull the standing end of the last bight that is put through the loop first. That will snug the hitch and it will make it more secure.

Cheers

Todd 
 
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on January 28, 2019, 06:49:44 PM
HI Roo.
I made a video to clarify how to dress this knot.  Hope it helps with the capsizing issue you are having.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/h49EaG7kfuFBqdnP9
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: roo on January 28, 2019, 10:30:38 PM
HI Roo.
I made a video to clarify how to dress this knot.  Hope it helps with the capsizing issue you are having.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/h49EaG7kfuFBqdnP9

Thanks for the follow-up.  That tip does help with getting rid of excess slack.  I was just trying to work through all the ways the average user might employ it.

At its heart, it looks like a bell-ringer's loop (half sheepshank) with a bight of the the free end tucked into the free bight of the bell-ringer's loop to provide extra stability.  Perhaps that is what you were alluding to with your "half-sheepshank" comment in your first video.

I can understand wanting to draw it up to the object like a hitch to prevent capsizing, but I wouldn't argue against classifying it as a fixed loop, either.  It reminds me of my attempts to create a loop that can be released while under load, even though that is not your aim here.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 29, 2019, 02:11:55 AM
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwayman's hitch.
Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch.
I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
Todd, yes, we've come across it.  While it might
look appealing in the circumstances you show,
if you try it say as a slip-free hitch with heavier
rope, you'll find that that stabilizing half-hitch
/nipping-turn (you cite the sheepshank, rightly;
Roo notes bell-ringer's loop) can do a bit MORE
stabilizing than you, a hundred feet down, pulling
futilely hoping for release, want !!   :o
YMMV per conditions.

The general tactic of having the heavily loaded
SPart bight into not the slip-tuck but the "frame*
(my terms) through which the slip-bight runs
is good --puts less force against the latter,
and resists capsizing much better.

Still, Grog for his Animated Knots site found my
initial"tumble hitch" per roo (I'd no real name for it)
revision/improvement on the popularly promulgated
highwayman's h. to be yet dubious to his testing.
Hmmm; must more "YMMV" being seen.

(Re "initial", this was taking the slip-bight up
front (per Roo's presentation) directly up through
the frame, not around behind & through.  The shown
version is perhaps more sure, with force pressing
the slip-bight against the object, but then one has
the extra drawing of line around the object and
some friction in that.  Again, YMMV per conditions;
often it should be assessable on tying whether the
simpler version will suffice.)

I see that Wikipedia has put in you unwanted (by me)
half-hitch nipping turn on their rendition of "tumble
hitch", and so will likely fire off a complaint on that.
Really, I have found that nipping turn to nip allll too
well, for the purpose intended, at loosening time!

Good knotting!
--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 29, 2019, 02:19:02 AM
As I remarked above
Quote
I see that Wikipedia has put in you unwanted (by me)
half-hitch nipping turn on their rendition of "tumble
hitch", and so will likely fire off a complaint on that.
Really, I have found that nipping turn to nip allll too
well, for the purpose intended, at loosening time!

I've posted a correction to Wikipedia.  But I don't have
corrected images ... and so only left a parenthetical remark
about a need for that in what remains.  (They do seem to
know about Roo's & Grog's sites; not sure who thought
to improve upon the knot as presented there --alas.

Quote
The '''tumble hitch''' is a "slip-free", quick-release draw loop [[knot]]
used for temporarily securing a [[rope]] such that it can be released
completely from the hitched object (i.e., no rope will remain around
it upon release --it has "slipped free". The tumble hitch is tied in the bight.

NB: The version shown in this page as of 2019-01-28 is NOT the version
presented on the Notable Knots site.  The key difference is that here,
one is (wrongly) instructed to "Cross a bight near the working part
over the standing part" instead of simply putting a bight UNcrossed
over the first-positioned bight.  The importance is that the turn shown
here will often constrict and nip the enclosed bight --as e.g. done in
a sheepshank & bell-ringer's loop--, defeating (full) release; someone
who just rappelled in canyoneering, which sometimes such knots are used,
would be frustrated in trying to pull the knot free.  Also, this mistaken
presentation I'm redressing says that the working end is near the hitch;
this might well NOT be the case!  And the images unfortunately show
a quite short tail/working-end dangling >>on the wrong side of the object
(which would prevent "slipping free" from it)<< !

The design goal for this knot was to redress the vulnerability of the
well-known "highwayman's hitch" to capsize the slip bight; this known
knot put full load upon this bight which toggled the knot, and especially
in flexible cordage it could fold this toggling part and capsize, possibly
spill the knot.  The initial, simple revision was to change the positions
of the placed bights of the highwayman's hitch so that the 2nd-placed
bight would go INSIDE the initial one (which was in the to-be-heavily
loaded standing part), and then the "slip bight" would go through this
2nd bight and so be only indirectly pressured by the loading --making
for both a more stable knot and one more easily released.  The Notable
Knots side, as well as Grog's Animated Knots, give a further version
wherein the slip bight is take not directly up through but rather around
the standing part then to be tucked in the opposite direction through
that 2nd-formed bight; doing so will see this slip bight pressed into the
object, offering perhaps some surer stability (but at a cost of incurring
more friction when pulling to release it --back around the object).


I simply excised the Wikipedia text about release under tension
(which it has asserted as doable); there can be --and anyone
abseiling with such an anchor knot darn well understand risks!--,
but OTOH there can be a lot of resistance when loaded, too.
And of course, how forceful is the pull to release?  Maybe one
has the tail tied to a truck, and yes it WILL release!   ;D


--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on January 29, 2019, 04:59:34 PM
Hi Dan,
Thank you so much for your response and input. You stated yes we've come across it. Could you direct me to where you came across it? That's the reason I came to IGKT is to find more information about this hitch.  The rest of your post seemed to deal with politics surrounding the tumble hitch.  I'd like to stick to the subject at hand...getting information about the hitch I presented. The tumble hitch is a great hitch but a completely different subject.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 30, 2019, 10:53:39 PM
Hi Dan,
...  You stated yes we've come across it.
Could you direct me to where you came across it?
I came across it in my hands, playing around with
slip-free hitches --and, i.p., in the simpler version
of the "Tumble hitch" which I described : which
is the knot you present but without twisting the
SPart's bight to put over the first-placed bight
(the "frame", per my terms).

It has been now a decade and half since Roo & I had
discussions about these things, sharing a concern about
the vulnerability of the promulgated highwayman's h.
and trying to warn readers/potential-users of that.
Maybe there's a thread or two on this forum of such
chatter?  And I'd think that the initial replacement
recommended by me was for the simple re-ordering
of the H.H's laying on of bights to get the better
knot, and then for some reason it was felt that
even that c/should be bettered into the version
now named "tumble" ?!  (which suffers from the
need to draw the release line around the object)
--foggy recall, I'm afraid.

As for the practical significance/value of slip-free
hitches, I'm unsure : the *need* for slipping free
comes where? --vs. maybe some preference for
it vs. having to pull a line from around something.
(Too easily I can imagine "oops" moments on slipping
free, which were the line at least yet around the
object, one might be in less trouble.  Abseiling comes
to mind re this!)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: DerekSmith on February 02, 2019, 06:05:27 PM
What a lovely, and very effective, variation.

Did you develop it or simply 'discover' it?

If you developed it, then you have my respect, because this simple variation transforms the value of this knot tremendously.

I like it and will spend a little time studying its form and function.

Derek
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on February 04, 2019, 05:55:37 PM
Hi Derek,
Thank you for your kind comment.  I am a nerd with knots. I was practicing with paracord at my office.  I was tying truckers hitches across my desk from drawer pull to drawer pull.  I liked the combination of using a quick release hitch with the truckers hitch because all the knots release easily.  Unfortunately when I tightened the truckers hitch on one side, the highwaymans hitch capsized on the other side.  It simply came to me to to use a component of the truckers hitch with the highwaymans hitch. So I put the loop over the first bight and the new hitch was born.  I have to admit I stumbled upon it just playing with paracord. 

I have scoured the internet knot sites for this hitch and I couldn't find it.  So I came to IGKT to get more information.  Im glad you like the Hitch.  I really hope that it is recognized as a new hitch.   
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: roo on February 04, 2019, 07:56:48 PM
  I really hope that it is recognized as a new hitch.
As I mentioned before, it's really more of a loop (bellringer's) with a backup for stability.  Its non-sliding/non-collapsing form argues against the "hitch" moniker.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on February 05, 2019, 12:22:26 AM

As I mentioned before, it's really more of a loop (bellringer's) with a backup for stability.  Its non-sliding/non-collapsing form argues against the "hitch" moniker.
[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback Roo,
Could you give me your definition of a "hitch" so that I can understand why it doesn't meet that standard. 

I have read that a hitch is a type of knot used for binding rope to an object.  I admit that it has a loop component to it but the action of the knot is a hitch.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: roo on February 05, 2019, 01:35:12 AM

Thanks for the feedback Roo,
Could you give me your definition of a "hitch" so that I can understand why it doesn't meet that standard. 


Hitch (https://notableknotindex.webs.com/glossary.html) --n. A knot form that anchors a rope to an object and usually collapses to form to the shape of the object or has such potential.

In the knot you show, the tightening must occur through a strategic working of a fixed knot form rather than mere pulling.  While exceptions occur throughout knot terminology, a knot so dependent on the form and function of the bellringers knot/loop will be favorably disposed to a similar description.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: DerekSmith on February 05, 2019, 03:01:25 PM
Our Knotting Lexicon is so steeped in history and covers so many trades (who rarely talked to one another) that it can at best be described as archaic and vague.  Ashley attempted to rationalise our lexicon, but he was so bound by the 'current usage' of the time, he largely failed.

As a consequence today we see massive discussions such as the Loop vs Eye controversy.  Such discussion though are important.  They must be had at some point in order to rationalise the mishmash we have inherited.

I believe though, it is important that we apply a degree of clear rational logic as we rationalise the mess.

For me, the key element of a hitch is that it is a knot which would cease to exist in its desired form if the non cordage element (NCE) were to be removed.

There are a multitude of knots which are made to include a non cordage element, but for example a Bowline made snug around a bar is no different to a Bowline thrown over a bollard.  Even though the result is the line 'hitched' to an object, neither are (for me) hitches because they both would retain their intended form even after the removal of the non cord element.

On that basis, this knot, which would cease to exist if the NCE were to be removed, is clearly a Hitch.

Derek
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: roo on February 05, 2019, 04:27:41 PM

On that basis, this knot, which would cease to exist if the NCE were to be removed, is clearly a Hitch.


Huh?  If the object is removed, the bellringer's knot/loop with a backup is still there.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: DerekSmith on February 05, 2019, 07:48:32 PM
Hi Roo,  is it cordage dependent?  The cord I tied it in simply fell away to nothing...  I will try in something with a bit more 'memory'.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 07, 2019, 08:39:14 PM
Here are several replies to issues raised in the recent discussion.

0) "Unfortunately when I tightened the trucker's hitch on one side,
the highwayman's hitch capsized on the other side."

!! BINGO!  Roo & I some decade? back raised the warning
about this vulnerability of the highwayman's hitch
--which was probably never used in reality, just in legend.
And I simply reversed the ins/outs of those first two bights.

1) "Where did you come across it?" "In my hands."
I've become captive again to knots fiddling and in
the process pulled a few old pages of slipi-free fiddlings
and --voila-- there is this knot., viz., #20000515m14:04  <--edit
(or something w/diff. day-time suffix).

2) "this simple variation transforms the value of this knot tremendously."
How so?  You've read (and can here re-read) my notes
of problems with this knot.  However, I'll share w/all
that on the above old sketch I've given the knot my
*stamp of glory* --a commercial fishing-boat stamp
(impressor?) that my (unseen by me) grandfather had.
I must've been impressed hy the sure feeling of the
nipping turn, yet unaware of the very turn's downside
vis-a-vis releasing.

3) It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's ... !
Is it a *hitch*?

Well, as Roo is emphasizing, and as I also remarked,
it is well possible for the knot's pulled release end to
render the knot a bellringer's (eye) knot --i.e., the
twisted initially place bight (of the SPart) will effect
a nip on the bight it encompasses just as a sheepshank's
turNip can do, and ... no release (unless one can haul
hard enough to pull out the nipped bight around the
object, which is not necessarily practical).

Given that this knot's SPart has a nipping turn,
it's fair enough to see it as an eye knot, even
though it is applied much like a hitch.  (And,
one might consider the simple larkshead /
girth/cow hitch
when loaded : to some degree
it's operating somewhat as a twin eye, although
there's scant *knotting* to cite, absent the object!

4) "NCE" : IMO, not to the point, where "object" is.
There are many well-known hitches to cordage
--all those "friction hitches" climbers tree/caves/rock
use.

5) "... cease to exist when the NCE (<-object) is removed ..."
By this reasoning, a groundline hitch, anchor bend,
& timber hitch are not hitches --SOMEthing remains,
bereft the object.
Now, Derek did further write "in its desired form",
which extends the issue into finer delineations.

It's a tricky thing to define.  At least, for me, I exclude
the common round turn & 2 HHitches" as being a
"noose hitch" and among "nooses", which I classify NOT
by form purely irrespective of performance (as the latter
is materials/forces dependent.

6) "Hi Roo,  is it cordage dependent?  The cord I tied
it in simply fell away to nothing... I will try in something
with a bit more 'memory'. "

As I explained above, and repeated here, YMMV per
conditions.  Esp. if one has out much rope , hanging,
and has hitched around something frictive (a handy
tree, e.g.).  It isn't "memory" but firmness/stiffness
of the material, friction vs. the object, and force
upon the SPart (which might be just that of a lot
of hanging rope, waiting to be released).

But this discussion regards what remains after
(an incomplete) release; that with Derek regards
after physically (or mentally) removing the object.
THIS slip-free hitch (I think of it thusly, w/o getting
mired in philosophical points) can exist in full form
supporing a hook, e.g., with ample *EYES* --and
that of course puts '"hitch" out of the picture!
(Try it : replace a pile with a spar with a ring
to the same physical knot.)

7) "[A] Bowline made snug around a bar is no different
 to a Bowline thrown over a bollard.  ...  they both would
retain their intended form after the removal of the object."

Here, too, one can find issues.  Rockclimbers used to tie-in
with a "bowline on a coil" which could much seem like
a hitch, in the tying.
And one can snug a bowline pretty well to a relatively
large object and get significantly/practically different
loading provile --at equal angles of 120deg of SPart to
each eye leg, forces are equal, no longer the canonical
eye's 50% + 50% vs. 100%.  Will an eye knot
behave in the same across the range of such angles?

I know that your point is different in a stricter sense
of "knot class", but this is an aspect of things that
can intrude into some definitional exercises!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 09, 2019, 05:24:50 PM
There is one key problem to face, maybe solve,
with slipped knots :: enabling the slip-bight to be
pulled clear of the frame & what it toggles.  With
stiff cordage (and it needn't be all so stiff), it's
difficult to make rope bend back on itself,
for the *bulb* bight tip to fit through a mere
2-diameter space!

I see that a simple solution is to make a sort
of minimal timber hitch nipping of the slip-bight
--if tying a spar or pile hitch, which give adequate
real estate for the bight to be open (and not compressed
in knotting around a ring)-- will do this.  But most of the
knots I've seen (& fiddled) do not.

As for the OP's knot, I see that I've discovered it
TWICE --2003 in a slightly different orientation
than here & my 2005 finding.

Among the many things fiddled in the attached photo,
you'll see some in which the knotting comes well away
from the tied-to object --clearly in the *loop* vs *hitch*
realm. I do NOT mean for this small image to convey
the individual knots --only to show that there are many.
(All for a purpose I have nearly as much trouble stating
as for a sheepshank --for which I also have many knots.!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on February 11, 2019, 11:44:33 PM
Thank you all for your feedback.  I thought this variant was novel and more secure than the Highwaymans Hitch.  I find it sad that someone has tied something similar so long ago and found it had no merit to be passed on to others.     
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 12, 2019, 12:16:35 AM
I thought this variant was novel and more secure than the Highwaymans Hitch.
I find it sad that someone has tied something similar so long ago and found it had no merit to be passed on to others.     
Don't be sad.  I'm happy that someonElse assessed
the High.h. and found ti wanting, as had some of us
--but not those writing knots books!--,
and set about improving it.  Bravo!  And it is pretty
novel.

But my critique of the knot stands.  And I've opened up
the general issue of how to avoid too-tight binding on
a slip-bight toggle.  .:. look so some arrangement to
avoid that problem.  --because a lot of cordage doesn't
want to fold into a 2-diameter width.

I fiddle knots variously motivated, and by number alone
there's the implication that only so much time gets spent
with any one (depending ...), and things can be missed.
As I missed in 2005 that I'd done much the same thing
in 2003;
as I found the much-liked Gleipnir wanting (for I tied
it around a comparatively small-diameter object and it just
did not work well (at getting tightness into its nipping turn),
but others have much liked it; and I have used it, and have
sought improvements to it --call it the bright star of the decade
or more!

It is sad, though, that our knotting literature --for general knots,
as opposed to climbing or fishing knots-- is so removed from what
actually goes on; research for such books seems to come from just
prior books, not In-The-Wild observation.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on February 15, 2019, 05:09:15 PM



"avoid too-tight binding on a slip-bight toggle."

Does the statement above apply to the bowline? A bowline is a slipped bight thru a toggle with the standing end going thru the slipped bight. 

TM
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 15, 2019, 07:30:04 PM
"avoid too-tight binding on a slip-bight toggle."

Does the statement above apply to the bowline?
A bowline is a slipped bight
thru a toggle with the standing end going thru the slipped bight. 

TM
"slip-bight" is the term --a bight serving to slip something.
And The bowline is the marriage of a bight + loop,
but the loop isn't a *toggle* (if anything, a *frame*),
and the bight isn't here for slipping.  (One might perhaps
see the sheepshank as having something more
of the slip (sans toggle!) aspect, hoping it doesn't.

Now, there have been presentations of a slipped bowline,
where the tail is folded back, for supposed easy/easier
untying (for a knot known to be easily untied!).  This
would show the problem I point to where the line is
tensioned, and then one attempts to pull out the tail,
in some moderately firm rope.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: tmayhew on February 15, 2019, 07:58:44 PM
"because a lot of cordage doesn't want to fold into a 2-diameter width."

But the bowline uses the 2-diameter width.
Title: Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 17, 2019, 06:23:23 PM
"because a lot of cordage doesn't want to fold into a 2-diameter width."

But the bowline uses the 2-diameter width.
?!
It turns around the 2 diameters of the bight/collar,
but that part doesn't turn around the SPart all so
snugly (unless it's been *SS369'd*  :P ).

Are you not understanding the problem : that it is hard
to pull out a bight that is so tightly squeezed?!  These
questions are well beside that point.

--dl*
====