International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Knotting Concepts & Explorations => Topic started by: alanleeknots on August 27, 2018, 10:35:44 AM

Title: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on August 27, 2018, 10:35:44 AM
Hi All,
       Testing my new knots, Lee's Marlinspike loop is a lovely simple little knot,
       so easy to tie and untie, compact, handed extreme load very well.
       Will do more test on difference ropes.

       Lee's Overhand knot loop, look nice and the line tuck in nice and smooth, It handed heavy load quite well,
       The collar near standing part are little short, If you dress the collar very tie, it may jam on extreme load.
       Of cause difference sizes and material will react difference too, need more test.  謝謝 alanleeknots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iye0tGpG3q0&t=4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbidbilaV8Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z139yivj9Uc

Some cannot attach picture.
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on August 28, 2018, 10:58:41 PM
Hi All,
         Just like to dig in a little more, I have two lovely loops here Overhand knot and Figure 8 knot loop
         seems like both loops can handed lots more weight, I will test it. 謝謝 alanleeknots
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on August 29, 2018, 04:12:45 AM
Hi All,
        Both loops are performing excellent with quarter inch solid braid rope.
Have a few points here of my strategy create these loops.
1. The incoming eye leg tie a half hitch around one side of the overhand and figure 8 knot. it creates "counter force again standing part, also incoming eye leg in line with standing part, "make more room to release the collar"
2. "Tail rotation effect" lengthen the collar.
3. The Nub is little long, just like you try to bend a piece long steel rod, " push and bend the collar upward and lengthen it.
I have more to said but my English is limited, It will be nice to have Xarax here to do the analysis on these knots.
Will do more test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t94wb_mh8q8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcsANUslcdM
謝謝 alanleeknots.
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: KC on August 29, 2018, 01:17:22 PM
These are great explorations and data, thanx!
.
i think we see some different results on different ropes from rope stiffness: how much deformity in most loaded parts affects rope efficiency /'strength'
And for hitched or gripped part of line:recieving
How force is carried thru rope device:
A>is all of force carried on outside parts of line that forces hit directly >>or is some/all of force carried inside of line where outside reaches thru /to not direct access
B>Frictions on core to outer>>do core/kern move separately or handle as 1?
C>Does rope collapse under load as if coreless?
.
And for type of force passed to above receiving parts:sending
A>force thru hitch pinch like SheetBend pinching thru rope parts as a force pinning bolt type imagery
B>force grabbing around around outside as more of a grip inline like Surgeon's or Prusik, rather than pinning force thru w/Sheet
>>then if grabbing outside, frictions between rope parts comes into play.
.
i have done own break tests in woods of mostly smaller available stuff
>>Bowline at both ends of line, 1 Bowline tail-in, 1 tail-out like Sheet Bend left/right and pull between like carabiners.
Some ropes like innie Bowline, some outie  >> consistently
So, next guess is rope construction and how favorably receives force
>>this could immediately fold back to Left or Right Sheet Bend shwoing better for different members..
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on September 04, 2018, 07:55:25 AM
Hi All,
         KC thanks for your reply, I am glad you like my work.
         You have a great day. 謝謝 alanleeknots.
       
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on November 16, 2018, 11:25:08 AM
Hi All,  I have another lovely loop here " Pretzel loop"  quite similar to Lee's Marlinspike loop,
           This Pretzel loop may be little hard to tie but  is more secure then  Lee's Marlinspike loop.
           when I have time will test it,   謝謝 alanleeknots.
       
         
             
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: Knutern on November 16, 2018, 04:14:00 PM
Sure, the Lee 's Pretzel loop isn't easy tied - and thus (for me at least) also hard to learn w/o looking at the picture.

I wonder if there is a more clever way to tie it?
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: knotsaver on November 16, 2018, 07:40:43 PM
Sure, the Lee 's Pretzel loop isn't easy tied - and thus (for me at least) also hard to learn w/o looking at the picture.

I wonder if there is a more clever way to tie it?

Hello Knutern,
I will try by words: in the loop there is a nipping structure and a Blackwall Hitch finish.
You can obtain the nipping structure by starting with the initial steps of the Butterfly Loop: look at ABoK #1053 right diagram and try to obtain the nipping structure! ;) (you will obtain the mirror image by using ABoK diagram)
Ciao,
s.
p.s. nice structure Alan!
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on November 17, 2018, 01:33:20 AM
Hi All.  This time I am totally wrong, I thought no problem with Lee's Marlinspike loop, the Pretzel loop will do well too.
Just so busy with important issue  and careless didn't border to test it before I post it.
Today I do some quick tests, I found out it just can't handed heavy weight with climbing rope and it's jam bad, not too bad for 1/4" solid braid nylon rope, but still will jam on maximum load.
I totally underestimate the nipping force generate by the pair of interlock nipping loop it tightens the nub so hard. just unable to untie the loop.
Lesson lean, just can't judge by how good it looks of a knot , only through test than can tell the true of a knot.
 謝謝 alanleeknots.
       
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: knotsaver on November 17, 2018, 08:26:05 AM
...
I wonder if there is a more clever way to tie it?

Hello Knutern,
I will try by words: in the loop there is a nipping structure and a Blackwall Hitch finish.
You can obtain the nipping structure by starting with the initial steps of the Butterfly Loop: look at ABoK #1053 right diagram and try to obtain the nipping structure! ;) (you will obtain the mirror image by using ABoK diagram)


...only words  ;)
in practice you will obtain as a nipping structure a variant of the Gleipnir in wich both tails enter from the same side ;)
...and then so you can try with the Gleipnir, with the Constrictor...
Ciao,
s.
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: tsik_lestat on November 18, 2018, 03:49:29 PM
per Alan Lee

I have tried those variations before, maybe not with a pretzel but with a rather straight forward interlocking mechanism!Adding a pretzel structure,a very effective locking mechanism as xarax emphasizes in his relative thread with his good looking pretzel-like loops https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4464.0 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4464.0) , i think that increases a lot the locking power of this interlocking mechanism causing maybe this jamming phenomena!
I have used a gripping crossing hitch(photo 1)(there is another one),similar to yours and one can realize that with a single pass of the WE holds very well,just returning with a slipped version(photo 2).
I have also created a fixed loop version(photo 3) which differs from your double passing WE(I have tried that too)!
I wonder would this structures jam as you are reporting with the pretzel like loop?
I guess, somehow we shall find out!
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: DerekSmith on November 18, 2018, 10:42:31 PM
@ tsik_lestat

Could you provide a view of the rear shot of the top image please.

Derek
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: DerekSmith on November 18, 2018, 11:18:42 PM
Hi alanleeknots, congratulation on your Pretzel loop, I really like it

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6250.0;attach=23604;image)

It is well designed, based on two Carrick components, so it is secure, strong and jam resistant.  It has a simple hitch (nipping helix) as its locking component, the WE of which is tightly gripped by the full load of the SP , the load of one of the loop legs and  simple hitch locked by the return leg load.  A nice touch, is that after use, once the nipping helix has been released and removed, the whole of the knot simply falls to nothing.

This really is a beauty and so easy to tie - midline make two twists and fold the loop over line (much like the Alpine Butterfly method).  This forms the two opposing Carrick components and the central 'hole' that the locking hitch is going to go through.   Make the loop, then feed the WE through the locking hole, wrap it around the two carrick backs and feed it back through the hole with the WE on the loop side of the hitch (so the loop leg load pinches the WE.  and there you have it - lovely knot that I am fairly sure is so memorable, I will probably use it and teach it.

Derek
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on November 19, 2018, 11:45:15 AM
Hi All,
        Per tsik_lestat, I did a quick test, It will jam, I think it only good for light weight.

        Per Derek, Thanks you very much for test and the nice comment.

        Since you like these kind of loop, I rig up two more loops for now, if you guys like it I will rig up more.
         謝謝 alanleeknots.
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: DerekSmith on November 19, 2018, 05:50:12 PM
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6250.0;attach=23633;image)

This little beauty was quite a surprise.  So simple, yet devastatingly effective.  The OH component naturally transforms into the XCarrick component - but that additional twist, forming an adjacent helix is pure inspiration, it 'balances' the alignment of the knot, yet retains total simplicity of tying.

Its only weaknesses is that it jammed easily, especially under ring loading, and on release, it leaves an OH knot on the cord.

My favourite is still the Pretzel.

Derek
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: agent_smith on November 21, 2018, 02:40:36 AM
per Derek:
Quote
The OH component naturally transforms into the XCarrick component
The alleged entity posited as an "XCarrick component" is a use of personal lexicon advanced only by Derek Smith.

To use the term carrick in any sense is misplaced in my view.
In the first instance, the commonly shown tying steps for #1439 carrick bend (with uniform weave pattern) is in fact a dressing state - which quickly undergoes a transformation when load is applied.
The original uniform weave pattern vanishes - and instead morphs into two inter-linked #206 crossing hitches.

Climbers recognise and use #206 on a routine basis as a belay system - commonly known to them as a 'Munter hitch' / 'italian hitch').

The point being that the 'carrick bend' - supposedly where you draw the name of the alleged 'component' from - actually transforms under load to an energy stable state and does not resemble the original symmetry and uniform weave of its initial dressing state (which most people associate with).

And furthermore, it is actually possible to bypass the initial dressing state altogether - and simply tie a #206 crossing hitch and then inter-link another #206 crossing hitch with the first (to arrive at the energy stable final form #1439).
The term 'carrick' is less intuitive than 'crossing hitch' - with 'crossing' implying some form of overlap. In fact, a Munter hitch (which is #206) benefits from a capstan effect on the object to which it forms around (a carabiner) - and this, together with a crossing over its own SPart generate tremendous frictional braking power.

To describe Alan Lee's creations as somehow consisting of so called 'carrick components' (or X carrick components) is arbitrary and non intuitive.
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: DerekSmith on November 22, 2018, 11:54:57 AM
per Derek:
Quote
The OH component naturally transforms into the XCarrick component
The alleged entity posited as an "XCarrick component" is a use of personal lexicon advanced only by Derek Smith.


Thank you Mark for acknowledging my small part in identifying,,developing and promoting the concept of knotting Components.

You are of course quite correct in stating that the lexicon I am using is of my own creation, and as such will undoubtedly be in places poor, weak, confusing or inappropriate.  It is one of the values of this forum, that we may jointly develop a rational lexicon.

I have attempted thus far to utilise descriptive names, so it seemed rational to me that the Carrick which only contained duplicates of the same component, should share its name with the component that made it - hence, the Carrick Component.  Likewise, the Helix and Bight Components fell out naturally from discussions on their functionality.

Yes, of course, we could also call the Carrick Component the #206 Component.  So long as we all know what the structure is that we are referring to, all will be well.  Only time will tell as to what users prefer.

Anyway, I think we have hijacked this thread enough with talk about the lexicon for components, don't you?

Derek
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: agent_smith on November 23, 2018, 02:10:33 AM
Quote
Hi All.  This time I am totally wrong, I thought no problem with Lee's Marlinspike loop, the Pretzel loop will do well too.

Today I do some quick tests, I found out it just can't handed heavy weight with climbing rope and it's jam bad, not too bad for 1/4" solid braid nylon rope, but still will jam on maximum load.
I totally underestimate the nipping force generate by the pair of interlock nipping loop it tightens the nub so hard. just unable to untie the loop.

Hi Alan,
Just need to confirm something here please...
Did you mean that the knot based around #559 Marlinspike hitch was okay and did not jam?
It was the other knot - the Pretzel loop - that jammed?

Quote
Lesson lean, just can't judge by how good it looks of a knot , only through test than can tell the true of a knot.
I generally agree but, I would have thought that you could speculate or at least theorize that a knot built around a non-jamming structure such as a nipping loop or a marlinspike hitch (which are topologically equivalent to the unknot) would likely be jam resistant?
Just my thoughts...

per Derek:
Quote
I have attempted thus far to utilize descriptive names,
'Carrick component' is (in my view) not a descriptive term for the reason that most people identify the uniform weave pattern (mat) of #1439 Carrick bend before it has undergone transformation into something of an entirely different appearance.
This transformation yields #206 crossing hitches which are none other than the rock climbers all time favourite belay system (the 'Munter hitch).
In examining the physical appearance Alan's knots - your use of terms such as 'carricks' and 'Xcarricks' is not simplifying and making it easy to understand the structure.
In that sense, it can be hard for some readers on this forum to grasp what you mean by these terms - because they are entirely abstract.
Title: Re: Testing Lee's Knots
Post by: alanleeknots on November 24, 2018, 10:13:40 AM
HI All,
           I did a few quick tests on Marlinspike loop with 1/4" solid braid nylon rope and heavy used Bluewater Ropes 11mm (7/16")
           SAFELINE NFPA static Rope, it doesn't jam on and easy to untie, just to be on the safe side I like to do more test then
           I can confirm it is jam resistant. .
           
           Yes the Pretzel loop will jam, I have a few tests with heavy used Bluewater Ropes 11mm (7/16") SAFELINE NFPA static Rope and
           it's jam around 900 kg.
           I have some lightly used 1/4" solid braid nylon rope, this cheap rope the manufacturer didn't give the MBS # of their rope,
           I check online I found these types of rope, the MBS is around 500kg. I did three tests on a pretzel loop with the 1/4" rope,
           they all jam around 230kg.
         
           After I found out Pretzel loop jam, I do some study, I found  most bowline variation with a bowline (unknot) nipping loop
           Would likely be jammed resistant,  and any other kind of (unknot) nipping would likely to be jammed.
           Having said this any other kind of (unknot) nipping loop, the incoming eye leg and tail have to tangle in the right place
           then is can be jam resistant.

            For Marlinspike hitch is different from the rest, it generates compression force to secure the loop.
            I Would say Marlinspike hitch, do better than "any other kind of (unknot) nipping" but lose to Bowline nipping loop.
             謝謝 alanleeknots.