International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Dmitry on August 07, 2018, 10:04:22 PM

Title: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 07, 2018, 10:04:22 PM
Hello, dear knot tyers! I have tied quite sophisticated loop. It is TIB, tied from an angler's loop. Have anybody seen something similar? Is it some kind of bowline or not?
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: roo on August 07, 2018, 10:30:37 PM
Hello, dear knot tyers! I have tied quite sophisticated loop. It is TIB, tied from an angler's loop. Have anybody seen something similar? Is it some kind of bowline or not?

"Bowline" is just a name, and people have thrown it on many kinds of knots for various motivations.  Really, someone could call any knot a bowline of some sort because they use it at the bow of their ship, or because something (shapes, proportions, size, tying method, use, etc.) about the knot reminds them of a bowline, or because the inventor's last name was Bowline, etc. ad nauseam.  It's not a scientific endeavor, but rather typically a matter of humans wanting to make associations for memory cues or quick pseudo-legitimacy.   General knot-naming extrapolations have led to unreadably long, acrimonious discussions (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.0) because many of the participants lost sight of the fact that they were discussing mere opinions.

 In this case, especially considering the tying method, I don't see any value in trying to stretch that over-used moniker to the knot at hand.

Have you found any desirable properties for this loop beyond the ability to tie it on the bight?
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 08, 2018, 11:36:17 AM
Thank you for answer! This is the distorted regular TIB bowline (the distortion is not shown). It form reminded me the one of the Ampersand Bowline. It is also quite stable and non-jamming. I thought it can be interested for anyone else. Bowline or not - nothing matter, after all )))
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: agent_smith on August 09, 2018, 02:31:21 AM
per Dmitry:
Quote
Is it some kind of bowline or not?

I think you at least deserve a reply that has a little more substance.

The first thing I want to point out is your tying diagrams. The sequence to arrive from 'tying2' image to the final form appears to be incorrect. Either a step is missing or your labeling misses something. The final form cant be arrived at from the maneuver indicated in your 'tying2' image.

The second part is in relation to the definition of 'a' 'Bowline'.

The classical concept of [a] 'Bowline' is depicted in ABoK (Ashley Book of Knots) at illustration number 1010 (or simply #1010).

But, Ashley also shows #1012 and #1013.

So we can see that variations are permitted - and still carry the title of 'Bowline'.

So the question one could ask is; "How much variation is possible before a structure is no longer permitted to identify as [a] 'Bowline'?

Based on hundreds of posts from the likes of Dan Lehman, Xarax, Derek and others, I advanced the following hypothesis:
1. All Bowlines have a 'fixed eye' (as opposed to a noose like structure which cinches tight and isn't 'fixed')
2. All Bowlines have a functional 'nipping loop' (which must be loaded at both ends)
3. All Bowlines have a 'collar'.
4. All Bowlines are resistant to jamming (and this property is linked to the role of the nipping loop) and the role of the collar and its 2 'legs'.

If any of these 4 elements are missing, the structure is not deserving of the title 'Bowline'. Each of the 4 elements are holistic and inter-dependent. The jam resistance of all Bowlines is a key to understanding its structure. Any knot structure that is prone to jamming should automatically raise red flags and set off alarm bells. I have yet to learn of [a] 'Bowline' that is prone to jamming (but this is how science is done - maybe someday, someone will discover a 'Bowline' that is not jam resistant!). And this will force me to revise my hypothesis  :(

So, if we start from #1017 (Anglers loop) - it immediately fails the test of 'Bowline' on account of having no functional nipping loop. It does have a fixed eye. As for a 'collar' - it gets confusing here - but, there are additional qualifying elements for a proper collar. For example, a collar has 2 'legs' and both of these 'legs' must re-enter the 'nipping loop' (either from the same direction or from opposite directions as with #1033 Carrick loop). The SPart of [a] 'Bowline' also acts as a bracing post for the collar.

In my view, there is no proper collar in #1017 Anglers loop.
Also, the Anglers loop is not resistant to jamming (because there is no functional nipping loop and no proper collar with both legs re-entering the nipping loop).

Now, with respect to your creation, I am unable to directly arrive at this structure from your 'tying2' image. So, I enlarged your final photo to get a closer view of the structure.
I can only comment based on the photo - which is a little difficult to follow (my computer screen is a small laptop).

To answer your question, based on the presented image - it does appear to have the required elements of a 'Bowline'.
I will try to tie it again from your diagram to see if I can figure it out.
But,
1. There appears to be a functional 'nipping loop' - but this needs closer examination to confirm.
2. There appears to be a 'collar' - but, it also appears that both legs of the collar are not fully encircled by the nipping loop - which also needs closer examination.

Summary:
Your creation might be deserving of the title 'Bowline'. Will comment further after I have had time to properly analyze the structure!

EDIT NOTE: I am unable to comment on your creations resistance to jamming. I have not tied it and loaded it to determine the load threshold at which jamming occurs.
Maybe you could do this for me? Can you load it to a significant degree to investigate its resistance to jamming?
Remember that a key property of all 'Bowlines' is resistance to jamming.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: roo on August 09, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
Thank you for answer! This is the distorted regular TIB bowline (the distortion is not shown). It form reminded me the one of the Ampersand Bowline. It is also quite stable and non-jamming. I thought it can be interested for anyone else. Bowline or not - nothing matter, after all )))
I like that you're investigating ways to make the Angler's Loop better, as there is a very fun way (https://notableknotindex.webs.com/perfectionloop.png) of tying it.  But as this is for use as a midline loop, tied on the bight, some alternate loadings are producing jams for me.   

The heft and complexity of the knot body makes it hard to see end-of-line loop applications where one would like to see a method of threading the line through an object before closing with an easy and memorable method that can be inspected for errors without too much trouble.  If it were that type of knot, you wouldn't have to worry so much about alternate loading where the free end of the line sees tension with or without the ordinary standing part being tensioned.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 09, 2018, 12:01:28 PM
per Dmitry:
The final form cant be arrived at from the maneuver indicated in your 'tying2' image.
Thank you for comments! Tying is not obvious, really. I think I'll make a video.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: agent_smith on August 09, 2018, 03:23:17 PM
Dmitry,

I received word from Xarax about your creation - and this prompted me to rub the cobwebs out of my eyes and to take a another (closer) look.

I an unclear if it has a functional nipping loop....still haven't tied it - will do so soon.

I still haven't tied it - just took another closer look at your photo (on my rather small laptop screen).
Will post again tomorrow...
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 09, 2018, 07:57:28 PM
Here is the video: https://youtu.be/7t4G9sCKehI
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: agent_smith on August 10, 2018, 02:22:04 PM
Hi Dmitry,

Thanks for the video - there is one tricky maneuver (at 1:57) that has to be done correctly otherwise you end up with something else.

Anyhow, I've tied it now and had an opportunity to study its geometry.
Xarax made some remarks and suggested I take another look...

You did ask the question in your original post - so I am giving you the courtesy of an opinion based on certain 'rules' of what constitutes [a] 'Bowline'. There has to be a robust set of rules to describe Bowline structures otherwise any eye knot could lay claim to such a title.

Also, it is an opportunity to test the 'theory' - which is what is one of the purposes of this IGKT forum.

Okay...
1. In my view, there is no functional nipping loop.
2. The legs of the collar are not fully encircled and gripped by [a] nipping loop (the exit leg of the collar and the tail in fact both combine to force the nipping loop apart - so it is no longer a closed helix - and degrades its ability to act as a 'nipping loop').

Xarax may disagree but, for me, a key rule is that the nipping loop is a closed helix (not forced open) and; both legs of the collar must be fully encircled and gripped by [a] nipping loop. And since there is no 'nipping loop' - it thereby fails to meet the criteria to be awarded the title of 'Bowline'.

Per Dmitry:
Quote
It form reminded me the one of the Ampersand Bowline.
Actually, the Ampersand Bowline definitely is [a] 'Bowline'.
There is a functional nipping loop and both legs of the collar are fully encircled and gripped by the nipping loop.
Also, the nipping loop takes the form of a closed helix.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 10, 2018, 03:17:44 PM
Thank you very much! I hope this amused you a little. :)
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: agent_smith on August 10, 2018, 04:13:57 PM
Hi Dmitri,
Amusement? No, not at all.

Rather, an opportunity to test the theory of what is [a] 'Bowline' !
Thats how 'science' is done.


EDIT NOTE: In saying; "that's how 'science' is done" - it does not imply the use of the 'scientific method' - which is an entirely different proposition!
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: alanleeknots on August 10, 2018, 04:34:09 PM
Hi All, I am with Mark.
Quote
both legs of the collar must be fully encircled and gripped by [a] nipping loop.
then you can call it Bowline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA0dQhUIfpE
For Dmitry, I like how you maneuver this knot,  good work, may need some test on this knot.
謝謝 alanleeknots
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 10, 2018, 07:51:18 PM
For Dmitry, I like how you maneuver this knot,  good work, may need some test on this knot.
謝謝 alanleeknots
Hi Alan Lee! I'm your fan. Glad to interest you. I found later the starting point to make the end form of the Thief Knot from this video  in Geoffrey Budworth's book The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots & Ropework, Anness Publishing Limited, U.K., 2005
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: knotsaver on August 10, 2018, 10:18:50 PM
Hi all,
the eye shown by Dmitry is easily transformed in a retucked Bowline (same topology, different geometry).
Please try pulling first the SPart and the Ongoing eyeleg, so creating a closed nipping loop, then tightening the collar and the tail: you will obtain a retucked Standard Bowline. By the way, if you tie the knot by starting from a Bowline the first tuck would untie the Bowline, but the next retuck straightens all out!
I have found a simple TIB method, even if the TIB method starting from the Angler is simple too.
Maybe tomorrow I will post some pictures.
Ciao,
s.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 11, 2018, 01:45:26 PM
You are absolutely right. I have already noted this above. Waiting for your method of tying!
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: knotsaver on August 12, 2018, 04:10:45 PM
You are absolutely right. I have already noted this above. Waiting for your method of tying!

Dmitry,
I will post the pictures as soon as I can, but I noticed that my method is an Angler-method, I mean in the first steps I essentially tie an Angler with a different method...

Ciao,
s.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 13, 2018, 08:30:01 PM
Distortion and jamming test.
My primitive equipment does not allow me to measure the load and see the knot under load. I just load the rope until it breaks or starts to bend winch :). The test used a 6 mm polyamide cord and 10 mm carabiners. After the destruction of one knot, the other was easily untied by fingers.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on August 31, 2018, 09:18:42 PM
Here is another loop in the same manner. It is really-truly bowline now!
https://youtu.be/4CgALs61NFQ
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: roo on August 31, 2018, 10:31:28 PM
Here is another loop in the same manner. It is really-truly bowline now!
https://youtu.be/4CgALs61NFQ
Nice music.  I'm not a big fan of widening the upper collar (U-shape) on bowlines as that can lead to a destabilizing effect (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5995.msg40270#msg40270) on the shape.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on September 01, 2018, 09:53:19 AM
I'm not a big fan of widening the upper collar (U-shape) on bowlines as that can lead to a destabilizing effect (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5995.msg40270#msg40270) on the shape.
I'll test it and report the results...
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: agent_smith on September 03, 2018, 02:36:25 AM
per Dmitry:
Quote
Here is another loop in the same manner. It is really-truly bowline now!
https://youtu.be/4CgALs61NFQ

Thanks for your presentation Dmitry. Nice work!
This one is very interesting indeed.
I tied it and had a close look at how the nipping structure (which takes the form of a helix/loop) encircles and clamps both legs of the collar.
When you look from the 'front' side - it appears that the nipping structure doesn't fully encircle and clamp both legs of the collar - because the tail ('working end') partially displaces/occludes the helix.
However, when you examine thew reverse side, you can see that the nipping structure does eventually fully encircle and clamp both legs of the collar. This reminds me that it if often better to view 'Bowlines' from the side that emphasizes the nipping structure.

So I am saying that yes, you have indeed created a 'Bowline'.

Some comments:
The turn around the 'ongoing eye leg' is similar to Heinz Prohaska Double bight Bowline (aka Janus Bowline) - and then you have followed in Scott's footsteps and used his 'Scotts lock' tail maneuver to secure the structure. Prohaska made his 'working end' turn in the opposite direction around the ongoing eye leg.

Your presentation also has 3 rope diameters inside the nipping loop/helix - which helps to pad it out and increases the radius of the nipping loop/helix.

It isn't great in a ring loading profile because the nipping structure is pulled and widened which compromises its clamping effect.
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: Dmitry on September 03, 2018, 07:35:57 AM
Nice work!
This one is very interesting indeed.
Thank you very much! :)))
Title: Re: bowline or not bowline?
Post by: alanleeknots on September 04, 2018, 07:59:46 AM
Hi All,
         Dmitry lovely knot lovely work, I like it.
         謝謝 alanleeknots.