International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: enhaut on July 17, 2018, 07:17:57 PM

Title: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: enhaut on July 17, 2018, 07:17:57 PM
Part of the pleasure when playing with knots is to find out, after assembling a structure, if the result is already known and of use somewhere.

So one thing comes to mind; verifying in Ashley and in this Forum  >:(.

In Ashley it is pretty straightforward but in this Forum there is no way to search within a base consisting only of images of knots produced by the posters.

Imagine that in one click that I can get access to all of Xarax's production!
A search like "Bowline images" would present me all I need in that moment.

As for the loop hereby, if anybody have seen it, please post!
I think it is part of a family seen in the 14th chapter of Asley's.
It's a TIB structure easy to assemble,  and for my taste it looks good.

Does a noose collar make sense? Is it a practical approach?

I will not give the recipe right away, giving the puzzlers some time to resolve it.

Images= TIB-Loop-N-collar-a
Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: agent_smith on July 18, 2018, 06:07:44 AM
Reply from Jedi knot master Xarax:

    Beautiful TIB / EEL loop by enhaut ! Much more symmetric and good looking - than "my" Plait loop - and, of course, from the most ugly Farmer s loop.  Which also means that it will be stronger, too, if used as an end-of-two-lines loop, because the two parts of the nub ( each stemming from a Standing End, forming an interlocked overhand knot, and arriving at an eyeleg ) are almost identical geometrically, and so, in such a use, they will be loaded almost equally = optimally, relatively to the MBS of the rope. ( "Almost", because of the over/under asymmetric relation at the X-shape on the one side -  but remember, there can be NO symmetric single TIB loop, anyway ! )
Based on one of the many ( still not exhaustively enumerated ) interlinked overhand knot bends ( ask y Chang which one ! 😊 ) it may had been tied before by somebody ( but it has not been tied  by me ). After all, it is "easy"  carried by easy= straightforward to just join the Standing End of the one overhand knot of the one link and the Tail End of the other, and form a loop out of a bend - but few people, if any, have actually done this, for all the known bends !
Judging from the presence of those two overhand knots loaded with 100% of the load carried by each line, I can predict that it will jam easily / quickly - but that may not be what is expected out of his loop. To me, the best TIB mid-line knot is the #1053 Butterfly eye knot, which also jams (when eye loaded).

Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: knotsaver on July 18, 2018, 04:58:22 PM
Hi enhaut,
it could be a "brother/sister" of ABoK#1048:
in ABoK #1048 the 2 Overhand are of the same handedness/chirality in yours they are of different handedness. You could use the method shown by Ashley by changing the chirality of the last bight/turn (see ABoK#1048 picture down-left).
Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: siriuso on July 18, 2018, 05:09:37 PM
Hi Xarax, enhaut,
The configuration of your loop is the same as my bends but in different dressing. They are Ashley's Bend Tails Pairing A and B. They will be posted in my coming "My Working Notes". Also they are similar to Xarax's Winter Bend.

Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: enhaut on July 18, 2018, 08:03:23 PM
@ agent_smith
Thanks for the relay, having a review by Xarax is more than welcome! You sure know of the expression "the go between" (they made a film of that name). Jedi knot master is hiding on a planet(or an island) far, far away and you are the only one with the means to communicate with him. The rebellion is alive!

@ Xarax
It is nice to hear from you, I see that your ability to detect an overhand in a structure is spot on as always. I remember mistaking the Plait loop for the Farmer, how stupid of me.
I hope you still do knot related research, I miss your fine photos.
As for the loop; yes it can jam but I am wondering if the structure will remain the same under overload of if it will badly deform? To be seen.

@ knotsaver
More like cousins.
I tried your method without luck for now.
I will post my recipe,you will be able to compare

@ siriuso
All is in the dressing!
Looking forward to see your photos.
If you want to see a bend base on a crowning overhand knot that exists nowhere but in this forum look and see;
Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: knotsaver on July 18, 2018, 09:30:32 PM
...the attached picture could help...

Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: siriuso on July 19, 2018, 08:21:41 AM
Hi all,

Here are the bends.
By pulling apart the diagonals of the Enhaut's loop, it becomes the same configuration of the Ashley's Bend Tails Pairing A or B.

Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: enhaut on July 19, 2018, 02:39:25 PM
@ knotsaver
Exact! Now I see it. So yes brother ans sister, but the sister looks better! :D
I will show my tying method anyway for those who dont have Ashley's book.
Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: enhaut on July 23, 2018, 02:11:19 PM
This is the sequence I used for tying the loop presented above as Loop-N-collar (let's find a name shall we?).
There is an interesting discussion about " new-borns " knots here; see reply #18

Knot jamming test

Let's say for now that I was the first to take a picture of this loop. :)

Knotsaver found (see Reply #5) a clever way using the #1048 method to come up with the same result and I think it is an easier route than mine; it can be readied "in the air" without to much hassle. :-X

Xarax pointed out that giving the nature of the nub ( a system base on overhand squeeze )this loop would be prone for jamming. I agreed but there is another way to consider this; if we look at Frame 14 of this presentation, (just before the 2 frames of #1048) we see that the overhand in that dressing is squeezing every part of the nub therefore "making itself" unable to close completly thus accessible and pliable.

I put #1048 for comparison.
Ashley put a nice "decorative knot logo" on this one.

1234    = Sequence
5678    = Sequence
9101112 = Sequence
2-loops = Comparison (Frame 14= overhand close-up)
          Frame 16 and 17 = abok #1048
Title: Re: TIB-Loop-N-collar
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 24, 2018, 11:43:10 PM
I put #1048 for comparison.
Ashley put a nice "decorative knot logo" on this one.
Which doesn't make Ashley look very smart
--as it's a fine knot, hardly relegated for only
decorative value.  But, then, Ashley loads it
on the opposite end from what IMO is better
(which goes again to the "smart" bit  ;D  )