International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Knotting Concepts & Explorations => Topic started by: alanleeknots on December 16, 2017, 08:15:30 AM

Title: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on December 16, 2017, 08:15:30 AM
Hi All,  I found a Bowline transformation video done by a Russian knot Tyer Vasiliy Smirnov, I show him I have done the same thing before, and he exchanges his knots site.
          Since Vasiliy Smirnov already has his video, it reminds me I have my Bowline transformation photos in the forum, is about time to have my videos and show how I tie these knots.
          Vasiliy Smirnov claim that the Eskimo bowline in my videos should call "Cossack" under Russia name. If it is true that Russian have discovered this knot, I think we should give them the credit, and have the name "Cossack" instead of Eskimo bowline.  Any one have the history of " Cossack " knot, please let me know, I will make the correction.  謝謝 alanlee.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4276.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btjYvFrakqw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2EswyWPiWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLoZN4yEDdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ5icfuwmmA
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 16, 2017, 04:13:35 PM
Hi All,  I found a Bowline transformation video done by a Russian knot Tyer Vasiliy Smirnov, I show him I have done the same thing before, and he exchanges his knots site.
Me too, and note that with the "tail-inside",
common bowline, it matters on which side
of the eye one brings the tail out to (in a continuous
set of transformations in the bight)!  It's possible
to take a facing-upwards knot to facing opposite
--which would be a neat trick to play on someone
with an ends-anchored line containing such a knot.   :o

(Doing such topological transformations can be extremely
frustrating if one doesn't keep good account of one's moves:
you come up with form-B from form-A and ... , but struggle
to repeat the action, not knowing which moves you'd made!
I had trouble even with the relatively simple changes to
a "figure 9" knot into two symmetric orientations.   :-\
)
Quote
  Vasiliy Smirnov claim that the Eskimo bowline in my videos should call "Cossack" under Russia name. If it is true that Russian have discovered this knot, I think we should give them the credit, and have the name "Cossack" instead of Eskimo bowline.
That they might have discovered the knot (for themselves)
doesn't preclude Eskimos from having done the same;
as to who did so first, that evidence might be frozen
out of reach --or might predate any notion of states.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: KC on December 17, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;
>>sandwiched between primary forces, giving both Nip tension and hard Nip surface requirements
>>tail outside eye; is  not in sandwich between equal and opposite primary pulls;
>>loss of highest  tension and hardest surface components to Nip tail with.
.
BUT, in anti-Bowline where what was once the SPart is now a 2nd/long tail;
>>direction of pull from inline to that position to cross-axis
>>would likewise anti- the tail position to outside ring VISUALLY;
BUT really mechanically the same sandwich between primary pulls (now across eye) is achieved as most proper
>>modifying/upgrading Nip Loop from simple Turn, to RT pretty  much corrects problem in all cases.
>>RT gives more, firm Nip all around tail
>>note again, standard Bowline : 1 pull down eye/1tail, Russian Eskimo has 2pulls across eye, and 2 tails!
.
i first l-earned this form as simply 'jacked' Bowline w/o nationality
>>perhaps even finding that most descriptive
>>but this rose is the same, by any name!
.
Do we rush so to take blame if a knot fails?
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 17, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;

I disagree : the "left-handed" one will see the draw of
the loaded SPart bite hard(er) into the tail, as it brings
it around the returning eye-leg; whereas the common
one draws the tail into a sort of less-hard nip.  (And
it seems that knot is more prone to capsize, but ... .)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on December 18, 2017, 12:56:38 AM
Quote
Quote
  Vasiliy Smirnov claim that the Eskimo bowline in my videos should call "Cossack" under Russia name. If it is true that Russian have discovered this knot, I think we should give them the credit, and have the name "Cossack" instead of Eskimo bowline.

That they might have discovered the knot (for themselves)
doesn't preclude Eskimos from having done the same;
as to who did so first, that evidence might be frozen
out of reach --or might predate any notion of states.
--dl*

Dan, Thanks for your reply.

Quote
Quote from: KC on December 17, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;

I disagree : the "left-handed" one will see the draw of
the loaded SPart bite hard(er) into the tail, as it brings
it around the returning eye-leg; whereas the common
one draws the tail into a sort of less-hard nip.  (And
it seems that knot is more prone to capsize, but ... .)
--dl*
====

I am with Dan.  謝謝 alanlee
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 19, 2017, 02:28:51 AM
i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;

... whereas the common [bowlinep] draws the tail into
a sort of less-hard nip.

Btw, one can position the tail of the knot (either)
in a way that anticipates such movement; I've done
this, aiming to have the tail of the loaded knot
roughly where common drawings show it starting.
Of course, "YMMV" per forces/materials, but I think
that one can often have pretty predictable effect
by such particular dressings.  (E.g., another case
it the infamous "EDK" where one can pull the
choking line's tail farther into an *away* position
from where that knot's draw will rotate it, thus
somewhat putting off its movement to more risky
areas.  (The better approach of course is to use
a better knot --e.g., to make the extended tuck
recommended by Agent_Smith, which pretty well
lock this tail from movement.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on December 19, 2017, 05:19:21 AM
Hi All,
        Smirnor, On your knot forum I use google translate your comment, as below hopefully is correct,
"There is similarity, all spheres are similar. But this has not yet been invented, there is no interlacing inherent in the Turks, the reverse side looks exactly the same, rotated by 1/8 and everything is difficult to describe as. But to tie a knot directly is difficult and no sense. Another thing is if everything is shown in the form of a trick that converts the chat room # 1010 into a ball. I'll show you something. For now, here is the gift of IGKT for Christmas and our knots for the New Year."

Thanks you for your Chistmas gift to IGKT, I believe all members of IGkT would very much appreciate your generosity.
Well, in return, I have New Year gift "Transormation ABOK 1010-ABOK 569 (part2)" to all of you, hope you like it.
WSHING WORLD PEACE

http://www.morehod.ru/forum/paluba/obsuzhdaem-morskie-uzli-t25548-5520.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtUgf2Mo_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_9th7HowHg

謝謝 alanlee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on December 25, 2017, 12:17:59 AM
Hi all,
        Nice video Smirnov, After reading the comment of your video, I guess I have to accept the invitation.
        Here is my video, hope you like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzQb7AXmaKQ&t=67s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Jerj_Qh_o

         謝謝 alanlee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on December 26, 2017, 07:05:31 PM
Hi All,
         "Transformation ABOK# 1010 -  ABOK# 569 Part 5" turn out is my favorites knot of the year 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8tfAZdyzbk

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2018        謝謝 alanlee.
Title: Re: BOWLINE TRANSFORMATION
Post by: alanleeknots on January 02, 2018, 06:18:43 AM
Hi All,
          Great start for the Year 2018. Here is another beautiful well done knots tying.
          I am very happy with this BOWLINE TRANSFORMATION.           
          Happy New Year 2018, Hope you enjoy the video.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4C9I8KA8r8

           謝謝 alanlee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: knotsaver on January 02, 2018, 04:06:40 PM
Hi Alan and happy new year to all!
it's very nice the transformation (you are a magician! ;) ).
 I didn't know the equivalence with the Blimp (ABoK #582).
You could show a reversed Bowline, I mean the yellow part should become the Standing Part (for instance at minute 2 when you return back to the Standard Bowline) and so you could show that the Bowline is an auto-reverse eye!  ;)
Ciao,
s.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: agent_smith on January 03, 2018, 05:06:09 AM
This is inspirational Alan - a great start to 2018 - and it showcases what the human mind can conceive and create.
All done 'TIB' (no access to either end).

I am thinking that some of these transformations should be included in an update to the Bowlines analysis paper.

The relationship between #582 (Blimp knot) and the common Bowline and anti-Bowline is very interesting.

Thank you for your work!

Mark G
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 03, 2018, 10:56:23 AM
Hi All, 
         Thanks for all the reply, knotsaver, I am glad you mention reverse Bowline, I find is very easy to reverse a common bowline.
          Here is the video, have time I will make a video for Eskimo bowline transformation.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5Svx81eU0
                  謝謝 alanlee.

                 
         
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: knotsaver on January 03, 2018, 04:05:00 PM
... I find is very easy to reverse a common bowline.

...I had no doubt!  ;)
and now try reversing the Myrtle!  :)  ;)
(you have to exchange/reverse the chirality of the 2 loops)
You are a magician!
Ciao,
s.
[Edit] p.s. try transforming the Myrtle you will obtain a double Overhand and a "false" Blimp and maybe other knots   ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on January 04, 2018, 09:03:12 PM
Topological analysis of sea knots.

While performing topological analysis of sea knots by hand I've found 8 described knots that are isotopic to mathematical knot  6.3:
1. Deadeye Knot ABook #582, Skryagin L. N. Fig.5
2. Monkey chain #596
3. Flat braid # 569
4. Bowline #1010, Skryagin L. N. Fig.76
5. Cossack  bowline ( Kalmyk without bow) (Skryagin L. N. Fig. 97)
6. Adjustable hinge (predecessor bowline ) #1014
7. Two-Strand Lanyard Knots "Double furrier knob" (double Footrope knot)
8. Slip Noose Running noose  #1115
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 04, 2018, 11:50:59 PM
Hi All, 
       Simirnov, Happy New Year, You find your way here, you are well come.                 
       Bring in all your knots, we have a lot to do here.
       I don't understand what you mean here, hopefully IGK members understand what you said here.
        謝謝 alan lee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on January 05, 2018, 08:08:29 AM
 This photo of these isotopes , the order is broken but I think everyone will understand.
https://yadi.sk/a/3pNxdhYg3RCnQ3
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on January 05, 2018, 08:17:58 AM
I propose to create a forum section dedicated to games with knots, rope puzzles and tricks and to move our posts under the title .
Rope game the King of knots
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 05, 2018, 11:24:09 PM
Topological analysis of sea knots.

While performing topological analysis of sea knots by hand I've found 8 described knots that are isotopic to mathematical knot  6.3:
...
4. Bowline #1010, Skryagin L. N. Fig.76
...
Note that in making a topological exploration,
one has to connect the ends, and in the case of
the bowline, one has to choose on which side
of the eye to bring the knot's tail for connection
to its SPart !

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on January 06, 2018, 06:48:13 AM
Thank you! I know, not to be confused, I specify the node index in the host table. While we are considering 6.3, 8.20 to go a little later. I have moved the discussion in a new topic.http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6061.0
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 09, 2018, 11:41:19 PM
Hi All,
         Eskimo bowline (tail inside eye) transformation and BOWLINE TRANSFORMATION, both have 5 identical knots,
         Combine this two videos make the transformation complete. You can choose any two of the five knots, it can transform
         back and fore each other.
         
Quote
try transforming the Myrtle you will obtain a double Overhand and a "false" Blimp and maybe other knots
         knotsaver, I try little bit on the " Myrtle", seem like "reversed Myrtle" doesn't exist in the knots land library.
            I am glad you can find some knots out of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwqSshgy_ng&t=182s
         謝謝 alan lee.
 
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: knotsaver on January 10, 2018, 02:21:27 PM
Quote
try transforming the Myrtle you will obtain a double Overhand and a "false" Blimp and maybe other knots
         knotsaver, I try little bit on the " Myrtle", seem like "reversed Myrtle" doesn't exist in the knots land library.
            I am glad you can find some knots out of it.

It does exist! :)
the Myrtle is an auto-reverse eye!
try to understand how from the Myrtle you obtain a Double Overhand and vice versa.
Maybe I will send you a video so you will make a better one.
Ciao,
s.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 20, 2018, 07:50:02 AM
Hi All,
        Knotsaver, Thanks for the video I like it , you are right "Myrtle" can be reverse , I try a couple ways to reverse Myrtle,
        I can't find anything better than you way, You are the man for this knot, maybe you should make another slower video,
        and post it to the forum. Great work.   謝謝 alan lee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: knotsaver on January 20, 2018, 11:08:44 PM
Maybe I will send you a video so you will make a better one.

Alan, if you have time, you really can make a better video ;)
Anyway as I already said, the trick is to understand how from the Myrtle we can obtain a Double Overhand and vice versa...
Ciao,
s.

Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 23, 2018, 04:18:38 AM
Hi All,
        Saverio, I modify your tying method little bite, so it can work little smoother, it all base on your idea. Hope you like it.
        Now you owe me two beers. 謝謝 alan lee.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTyiAUGzL4U
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: knotsaver on January 23, 2018, 12:56:37 PM
 :)
You did! and you did better than me!
(I had no doubt ;) )
Bravo!
...
How many beers??? 2 beers???  :o  ;D
i will happy if some day I will get you a beer (oh, 2 beers!)!
But (wait a moment, in another post we are talking about the Gleipnir)...did you notice that you can obtain Xarax's variation of the Gleipnir (the simple Hitch a la Gleipnir) by  starting from the Myrtle (or the Double Overhand)... and what about the Buntline extinguisher (or Constrictor noose)?

Ciao,
s.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 24, 2018, 09:52:52 PM

Just so busy doing other things that I like, and also have to deal with my own knots, did'nt pay much attention on other knots.
Well, keep going and have fun.  謝謝 alan lee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 27, 2018, 07:54:56 AM
Hi All,
         I have another video here," ABOK # 1034 1/2 (Cowboy Bowline) - Eskimo Bowline Transformation".
         Hope you like it.

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVA62OMwt9E

          謝謝 alan lee.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: alanleeknots on January 30, 2018, 09:25:09 AM
Hi All,
        Another video "BOWLINE TRANSFORMATION Part 2." hope you like it.
         謝謝 alan lee.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX3jatbdM9k

Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: Harold Kahl on January 30, 2018, 04:13:31 PM
These are like magic.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on April 28, 2019, 03:47:44 PM
 Посмотрите найденный мной способ преобразования изотопов булиня 6.3 друг в друга.
https://youtu.be/t2y8qptjYi4
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: SS369 on April 28, 2019, 04:26:06 PM
Good day smirnov_wasilii.

Two things if you please.

Please help with some translations for not everyone understands your language.

And what does your video have to do with the Thread topic?

SS
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: agent_smith on April 28, 2019, 11:57:12 PM
I agree with Scott - this video does not appear to be related to the original topic.
It appears more related to the #582 'lanyard knot' (aka 'Blimp knot per Budworth).
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on April 29, 2019, 07:26:48 PM
Действительно моё видео демонстрирует преобразование #569 в #582 и обратно  #569,
но  оба этих узла изотопны (могут быть преобразованы без доступа к концам)  в #1010 замкнутый по лицевой стороне и потому сообщение соответствует теме.
В видео я рассказываю о том, что мной обнаружена промежуточная между #569 и  #582  объемная форма узла легко преобразующаяся  как в первый так и во второй вариант.
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: SS369 on April 29, 2019, 08:06:09 PM
Действительно моё видео демонстрирует преобразование #569 в #582 и обратно  #569,
но  оба этих узла изотопны (могут быть преобразованы без доступа к концам)  в #1010 замкнутый по лицевой стороне и потому сообщение соответствует теме.
В видео я рассказываю о том, что мной обнаружена промежуточная между #569 и  #582  объемная форма узла легко преобразующаяся  как в первый так и во второй вариант.

Google Translated:

"Really my video demonstrates conversion # 569 to # 582 and back # 569,
but both of these nodes are isotopic (can be converted without access to the ends) in # 1010 closed on the front side and therefore the message corresponds to the topic.
In the video, I talk about the fact that I discovered the intermediate form of the node between # 569 and # 582 that is easily transformed into both the first and second variants."

In my opinion, if you would show the eye conversion it will be helpful.

SS
Title: Re: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?
Post by: smirnov_wasilii on April 30, 2019, 07:14:04 AM
Дело в том что конверсию глаз я и Alan Lee  уже показывали много раз, вот, например, один из способов отзеркаливания булиня,
предложенный Alan Lee.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd23-BvVvrc&t=2s
А это мой способ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd23-BvVvrc&t=2s
Поскольку речь идет о трюковой вязке булиня #1010, то есть о трансформации табличного математического узла с индексом 6.3, можно рассматривать весь цикл
такого преобразования и отдельные его фрагменты  внутри  одной темы.